Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Sure, you can look at all kinds of solutions within a wide range of reasonableness that will in all likelihood result in little lawsuits that fizzle out after enriching a few law offices, but will never result in any court interceeding and doing much of anything, expecially nothing that will get in the way of an 8B$ meger.

Crandall talked about the necessity of pilot SLI cooperation on Bloomberg today for a reason. Its really not too hard to figure out how APA and USAPA can come to a cooperative agreement that would satisfy the UCC desire to have SLI behind them and at the same time preserve APA's desire to have a union without massive divsions that allow Parker to do what he has done here.

Yes it is a very simple solution. Parker finally grows a pair and he tells usapa that the seniority list will be the Nicolau and he is done wasting time.

No lawsuit. No time needed to negotiate some made up list. No expensive C&R. The UCC does not have to worry about extra costs and restrictions to business with C&R.

Done deal.

The APA has a known us air seniority list that they will arbitrate against.

All the questions are answered using the Nicolau list. Nothing to hold up an $8 billion deal. Using anything other than the accepted Nicolau list. Delays, expenses, uncertainty.

Best guess right now Hummel is trying to figure out a way to inform the BPR that the seniority "dispute" has been ended.

Bradford had better have a good lawyer on speed dial. There are going to be some very angry east pilots blaming Bradford for costing them 10's of thousands of dollars.

 

[cleardirect]

Aimless, I'm sure there will be lots of entertainment in the near future. You do know the NIC is dead. By being inflexible in a fluid environment the west has missed the opportunity to impact their future, which will be decided by APA and USAPA, the two unions representing the pilot groups involved. Hope the fish are biting.

No the Nicolau is not dead.

There is or was no negotiating with the east about the Nicolau. First east pilots can't be trusted to keep your deals.

Next there is no set of C&R that make DOH acceptable. So negotiating with the east is a waste of time.

Last if you think you won come take the Nicolau from us but the west is not going to just give it to you.

 

[Phoenix]

Yes it is a very simple solution. Parker finally grows a pair and he tells usapa that the seniority list will be the Nicolau and he is done wasting time.

No lawsuit. No time needed to negotiate some made up list. No expensive C&R. The UCC does not have to worry about extra costs and restrictions to business with C&R.

Done deal.

The APA has a known us air seniority list that they will arbitrate against.

All the questions are answered using the Nicolau list. Nothing to hold up an $8 billion deal. Using anything other than the accepted Nicolau list. Delays, expenses, uncertainty.

Best guess right now Hummel is trying to figure out a way to inform the BPR that the seniority "dispute" has been ended.

Bradford had better have a good lawyer on speed dial. There are going to be some very angry east pilots blaming Bradford for costing them 10's of thousands of dollars.

Just so you don't feel left out, we will bookmark your post too.

 

[cleardirect]

As a proposal, to be part of a JCBA, yes. But again, we don't have a JCBA first, and secondly EVERY SECTION of a CBA is negotiated and can be renegotiated at any time.

No CBA is FOREVER.

So you agree. That if usapa manages to force DOH on the west. When the west becomes the majority we can renegotiate the seniority list and use the Nicolau award. Placing east pilots back at the bottom of the list. Or even make some adjustments for time lost by using DOH.

No CBA is forever right. All sections are negotiable.

I would not want to be an angry east fo with 15-20 years left. Reserve fo would suck.

 

[cleardirect]

Gary has already stated that the NIC is dead, both at the CLT meeting and in writing. For the union and especially the legal change their mind would cause severe litigation that would make what we just went through a walk in the park.

Good luck with that. It would be litigation from the east against usapa. An organization that is about to end.

Good luck finding trustworthy leadership to create an organization to collect funds and Shepard the law suit.

What will the charges be? The union lied? Unions lie all the time, not illegal. The union used the arbitrated seniority list that it inherited. The union used the list that e company paid for and accepted.

When Parker finally finds his spine and tells usapa the Nicolau is the list usapa will have no choice. Nicolau and a contract or no money. What is it you east guys have been saying. A LUP is getting everyone more money.

So collect the money file a suit and watch it get dismissed.

 

[nevergiveup]

No the Nicolau is not dead.

There is or was no negotiating with the east about the Nicolau. First east pilots can't be trusted to keep your deals.

Next there is no set of C&R that make DOH acceptable. So negotiating with the east is a waste of time.

Last if you think you won come take the Nicolau from us but the west is not going to just give it to you.

The NIC will live on forever along with the Beech Starship and the Lear Fan.

 

[cleardirect]

I joined initially to try to educate our group on the nuances of labor law. But no matter what I said here the terms and language used against me by you and several of the posters were downright racist. Some still are. I've never gotten to that level, although at times I've certainly expressed thoughts that could have been maybe been thought out a little more.

A forum is generally not a place to have the "wild west" and in any case it would be appropriate to "self police", first, and maybe those who are not directly affect refrain from taking a side. Unfortunately that ship has sailed and we are where we are.

I can say that this go around with a SLI we will be able to work it out ourselves and most certainly without McCaskill/Bond because even with that with four or five different parties there is too much risk with the uncertainty of another proposed SLI (arbitration) where the enforceability is like leading the horses to water....the UCC and equity investors (if any) will insist on it before a merger is announced.

There is not going to be any negotiated seniority list.

It will go to arbitration and it will be the list. Federally binding this time.

Yes the UCC wants certainty. The result of arbitration is certain. The UCC has a different definition of uncertainty. They don't give a damn what order the list is in. We do. You think uncertainty is what method does the arbitrator use. Uncertainty to the UCC is how much will it cost and will it have C&R That limit the ability to make money.

Uncertainty is, will a law suit be filed if the unions negotiate an unfair seniority list. And one or more groups feel they were not treated fairly. Certainty is a third party neutral arbitrator or panel issuing a seniority list.

There is no way APA will agree to DOH. At that point negotiations are dead.. Usapa is restricted by the UOM and C&BL objectives from negotiating anything other than DOH.

Arbitration is the only option.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The NIC will live on forever along with the Beech Starship and the Lear Fan.

Whoa Dude....those were kool!

 

[end_of_alpa]

There is not going to be any negotiated seniority list.

It will go to arbitration and it will be the list. Federally binding this time.

Yes the UCC wants certainty. The result of arbitration is certain. The UCC has a different definition of uncertainty. They don't give a damn what order the list is in. We do. You think uncertainty is what method does the arbitrator use. Uncertainty to the UCC is how much will it cost and will it have C&R That limit the ability to make money.

Uncertainty is, will a law suit be filed if the unions negotiate an unfair seniority list. And one or more groups feel they were not treated fairly. Certainty is a third party neutral arbitrator or panel issuing a seniority list.

There is no way APA will agree to DOH. At that point negotiations are dead.. Usapa is restricted by the UOM and C&BL objectives from negotiating anything other than DOH.

Arbitration is the only option.

We'll see.

 

[prechilill]

We'll see.

Your time is short... Game over Jamie

 

[cleardirect]

We'll see.

Besides. Why are you so afraid of arbitration?

 

[Phoenix]

Good luck with that. It would be litigation from the east against usapa. An organization that is about to end.

Good luck finding trustworthy leadership to create an organization to collect funds and Shepard the law suit.

What will the charges be? The union lied? Unions lie all the time, not illegal. The union used the arbitrated seniority list that it inherited. The union used the list that e company paid for and accepted.

When Parker finally finds his spine and tells usapa the Nicolau is the list usapa will have no choice. Nicolau and a contract or no money. What is it you east guys have been saying. A LUP is getting everyone more money.

So collect the money file a suit and watch it get dismissed.

If the APA desperately wants the Nic, maybe they can be persuaded to twist Doug's arm to twist Gary's arm to twist the BPR's arm to pass out a Nic inclusive proposal for all members to ratify. If the APA doesn't want the Nic, then maybe they will point out to Doug that the West class is bound, is not part of the negotiations, and "the seniority list is unlike other matters addressed in collective bargaining, it is unlikely the West Pilots could successfully allege claims against US Airways merely for not insisting that USAPA continue to advocate for the Nicolau Award."

 

[Beancounter]

I know that this line of thought Is ingrained in the West pilot psyche for some reason but this has NO basis in fact. It had no cash to acquire our airline. What kind of double talk is "couldn't afford to internally generate the growth it needed to survive (no cash) so it acquired your failing airline (with WHAT? Dougie dollars?).

US Airways had no cash to acquire AWA and vice versa. That cash came from external equity investors and that is supported in the 10K.

Locked out of YOUR growth plan? Really, if YOUR thinking of this as YOUR growth plan it's no wonder we haven't gotten a contract yet.

I agree, AWA didn't have the cash to buy US, but they had the management and credit. Myself and the entire business community know it, why 3000+ east pilots choose to ignore it, I don't know or care. If it makes you feel better about your career choice think what you want.

Yes OUR/YOUR airline means we share the growth. Well, at least we're supposed to. I know you'd like the hole cake and to eat it too. After all you've been horking it down ever since the merger.

Bean

 

[Phoenix]

There is not going to be any negotiated seniority list.

It will go to arbitration and it will be the list. Federally binding this time.

Yes the UCC wants certainty. The result of arbitration is certain. The UCC has a different definition of uncertainty. They don't give a damn what order the list is in. We do. You think uncertainty is what method does the arbitrator use. Uncertainty to the UCC is how much will it cost and will it have C&R That limit the ability to make money.

Uncertainty is, will a law suit be filed if the unions negotiate an unfair seniority list. And one or more groups feel they were not treated fairly. Certainty is a third party neutral arbitrator or panel issuing a seniority list.

There is no way APA will agree to DOH. At that point negotiations are dead.. Usapa is restricted by the UOM and C&BL objectives from negotiating anything other than DOH.

Arbitration is the only option.

You want USAPA to negotiate with the Nic and then be sued by the East, but you also want USAPA to restrict itself to negotiate nothing but DOH so that it can't come up with a solution, so that arbitration will result... Which is it? Is USAPA free to negotiate or not? Might want to put in a call to Dallas so they can start, whatever it is they are allowed to do. 🙂

Arbitration would cause more delay and the result is anything but certain.... delay and uncertainty are both variables that the UCC needs to eliminate in order to make a decision. We all have to back away from our narrow, personal hopes and feelings, and take an objective look from the perspective of the folks involved who will make the decisions. It really isn't too hard to figure it out, regardless of how distasteful the obvious conclusion may personally be.

 

[Phoenix]

Besides. Why are you so afraid of arbitration?

The UCC's and APA's thoughts on arbitration are most important, in that order.