Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

So much for the "APA wants DOH" theory.

Think a moment, even if for the very first time ever in your entire life: "Chris Manno, a Dallas-based 737 captain with 27 years at the airline, .......Manno said the group's primary interest is to protect pilot seniority." Let's look at that again, shall we? = 27 years, and a 737 captain......Yeah...27 years? = No problem for your nic wish, in that he should be thrilled with the idea of arrogant, greed-soaked, numb-nutted-genX-new-hires gaining left seats immediately...shouldn't he? 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

pointless

You would first need to have a point for it to be later blunted or lost. 😉 What IS you supposed "point"?...Besides a continual exercise in self-indulgent fantasy, that is? 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

.....

Wow! 2 West plus votes for a line of dots. You kids have hit a new high in intellectual achievement here! 🙂

Well...I'm willing to play to the audience: ............................................................ That many should be good for a landslide approval rating! 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

I've got four seniority arbitrations in a row supporting my position, that's a fact.

What wonderful "logic" jake, by which, it's equally a given that electing oboymama to the office of "president" twice sets the tone for all future "logical" process,...or even basic decency? 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

This truly is where the few trash their profession to prove their point. If the industry like ALPA or the other unions have seen this it's no wonder they don't wish us to be any part of them.

These guys are really Captains? Including their kids? Humor?

The profession they bash is their own.

Shameful.

No joke sir. I finally just settled on the fact that nothing I've done in my life, nor any choices made, needs must compell me to accept even the slightest personal association/affiliation with these pathetic, perpetual "kids"....period. As for the "profession"? = It's on it's way out as such, and going there at full speed ahead. The last fighter pilot has been born and the last "real" airline pilots are retiring or fairly soon to. Those of us that experienced flight when it wasn't the sad joke it has sadly become should, imo, feel grateful, not resentful. In all of human history, only four generations, at most, got to truly "see the show" regarding flight, while it was still at it's adventurous and social best. Personally?...I feel extremely fortunate to have experienced even the final portion of that. I wouldn't have missed ANY of it for literally the world....the good, the bad and the nowadays ugly...even the most serious "cheap thrills and high velocity"...or the "money for nothin' and chicks for free"/ all of it....period 🙂

Having said that; I advise NO young people EVER to enter into the "airline" BS, but rather ask of them if they see themselves as a career, professional military officer, that just might also get some "fun" with aircraft, or, find a way to make enough money to buy flying toys on the outside.

I'd think that just pointing any actually intelligent, gutsy and decent kids at the "internet Trash Talk" videos of the mighty "spartans" would suffice to afford them a full education of the type of utter imbeciles they maight well be dealing with in the modern airline world.....

 

[EastUS1]

Having said that; I advise NO young people EVER to enter into the "airline" BS, but rather ask of them if they see themselves as a career, professional military officer, that just might also get some "fun" with aircraft, or, find a way to make enough money to buy flying toys on the outside.

I'd think that just pointing any actually intelligent, gutsy and decent kids at the "internet Trash Talk" videos of the mighty "spartans" would suffice to afford them a full education of the type of utter imbeciles they might well be dealing with in the modern airline world.....

Serously; to any/all that might be getting this on Facebook or otherwise, and wish to fly; realize that this corporate-blessed "quality" of ...umm..."pilot" is what you've got to look forward to in commercial airlines of the future. Complete village idiots like this can be avoided through military/real flying, or just by finding other ways to get yourself aloft..and NO...I'm not making either this drunken-appearing, drooling infant or his like up just to scare any of you. This pathetic, and then-hopefully drunken, or otherwise just-plain insane idiot is supposedly a "pilot" for a commercial, major airline of today!...Possibly even your "Captain" for your flight today..but..no worries...right?

Personally...I do a lot more driving to places nowadays than I used to........before this "new breed" of umm..."pilots" came to be even conceivably acceptable.

 

[Claxon]

Looks like the end of USAPA is near.

I guess the APA pilots are not so keen on welcoming the East pilots after all:

http://www.thestreet...oo&cm_ven=YAHOO

Read the article you provided a link to. I will get back to you on the CAL pilots comments about UAL pilots shortly.

"APA spokesman Tom Hoban said that only a tiny number of APA's 8,000 members oppose a merger. "We've seen no groundswell in support of Tom Horton and a standalone operation," he said. "It's been just the opposite." He said the APA board voted 18-0 in support of a merger in April, and that 95% of its members voted "no confidence" in the current management team and the standalone plan."

Stay on the road.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Sorry to break the news to you but the 9th said "not ripe yet" and Silver said "no immunity for the company".

Those cases do not support your position, USAPA still has a DFR.

I'll concede USAPA can negotiate seniority subject to DFR just like you had to concede that election.

Appeals court explained the problem for their "not ripe" ruling and Silver was clear. T/A has little meaning in our situation and companies have always had to shoulder some burden in contracts.

You can't have a DFR until there is a suit. Threats mean nothing.

 

[767jetz]

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11795974/1/small-amr-pilot-group-opposes-merger.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO

"An increasingly vocal but so far small group of American (AAMRQ.PK) pilots is opposing a merger with US Airways. (LCC_), saying its seniority could be threatened."

 

[end_of_alpa]

So much for the "APA wants DOH" theory.

APA spokesman Tom Hoban said that only a tiny number of APA's 8,000 members oppose a merger. "We've seen no groundswell in support of Tom Horton and a standalone operation," he said. "It's been just the opposite." He said the APA board voted 18-0 in support of a merger in April, and that 95% of its members voted "no confidence" in the current management team and the standalone plan.
Without a merger, he said, American will remain far smaller than its key competitors and "there won't be any change in the toxic culture we've got." He called Manno's efforts part of an orchestrated management campaign.

As for seniority, Hoban said the solution under the McCaskill-Bond model will most likely include establishing a ratio integration for seniority among pilot groups and then protecting pilots in certain categories with fences. The same solution worked in the Delta (DAL_) merger and seems likely to work in the United (UAL_) merger as well, he said.

Seems the APA does not want to put all the old east pilots in front of them only for a few years.

I'm for it. USAPA NEEDS to remove DOH with conditions and restrictions and argue all the US Airways pilots need to be placed on top of the list for not being in bankruptcy and carrying the most company value for making money and saving AMR from being a small carrier in relation to the opposition.

It should have never been in the Constitution.

BTW, Hoban doesn't realize the ratio statement could mean that AMR pilots with MORE years of service could go beneath us with less. Eischen will be one of the Arbitrators and then the majority of AMR pilots could protest and form their own union to get rid of the APA.

This is really COOL! because then MAYBE the government will nationalize the pilots and they work for the government with the airlines as contractors. Pilots don't value pilots the same way and pilots can't be trusted to fly airplanes, just like gun control.

Citizens can't be trusted and neither should pilots. Maybe well have a political officer ride Jumpseat with us on every flight, just like it was in communist USSR.

 

[cleardirect]

I'm for it. USAPA NEEDS to remove DOH with conditions and restrictions and argue all the US Airways pilots need to be placed on top of the list for not being in bankruptcy and carrying the most company value for making money and saving AMR from being a small carrier in relation to the opposition.

It should have never been in the Constitution.

BTW, Hoban doesn't realize the ratio statement could mean that AMR pilots with MORE years of service could go beneath us with less. Eischen will be one of the Arbitrators and then the majority of AMR pilots could protest and form their own union to get rid of the APA.

This is really COOL! because then MAYBE the government will nationalize the pilots and they work for the government with the airlines as contractors. Pilots don't value pilots the same way and pilots can't be trusted to fly airplanes, just like gun control.

Citizens can't be trusted and neither should pilots. Maybe well have a political officer ride Jumpseat with us on every flight, just like it was in communist USSR.

I agree that usapa should remive DOH from the C&BL. It has no meaning teeth and only serves to limit the union during an arbitration. DOH never should have been in the C&BL, agreed. Interesting this opinion from one of the "founders" of usapa. Finally seeing your mistake?

What you fail to understand is that the rest of the pilots in this industry are not singled minded that DOH/LOS is the only factor.

Oh I think Hoban realizes exactly what he is saying. He said ratios not DOH/LOS or even relative. Because he knows apa has the numbers. They will want to ratio WB capts with WB capts. NB capt/NB capt. He knows they have a lot more. He also knows that DOH/LOS is asking for a staple. APA knows better than anyone the reaction that got last time. A reasonable ratio argument will go a long way in an arbitration. Something you east pilots need to understand.

I hope you are TIC about nationalizing airlines. Last thing I want to do is become a gov' ment employees.

 

[cleardirect]

Serously; to any/all that might be getting this on Facebook or otherwise, and wish to fly; realize that this corporate-blessed "quality" of ...umm..."pilot" is what you've got to look forward to in commercial airlines of the future. Complete village idiots like this can be avoided through military/real flying, or just by finding other ways to get yourself aloft..and NO...I'm not making either this drunken-appearing, drooling infant or his like up just to scare any of you. This pathetic, and then-hopefully drunken, or otherwise just-plain insane idiot is supposedly a "pilot" for a commercial, major airline of today!...Possibly even your "Captain" for your flight today..but..no worries...right?

Personally...I do a lot more driving to places nowadays than I used to........before this "new breed" of umm..."pilots" came to be even conceivably acceptable.

When I did not think you could do it, it went and did it. You posted an even more arrogant post then I thought even possible for you.

So in your all encompassing self entitled arrogant attitude. You know better than the FAA who designed and signs off on the training programs. The hiring boards at all the airlines. The instructors and check airmen at all of the airlines. The FAA inspectors that do line checks. You know better than all these people about this "new breed" of airline pilots.

Well hell if only you were dictator and you could make all of the decisions the would would be a better place with you in charge.

You must be a real joy to fly with. Some tired over the hill pilot living in the past. How many conversation start with you holding up two hands and saying "there I was"? Did you miss all of those CRM classes? That ME CAPTAIN, YOU SHUT UP BS went out with propellers.

Just can't stand it that a group would stand up to you can you? Man are you obsessed with these videos. Yes we have seen them. Yes they made their point. It must really be working if you are still going back and watching them. Except you have facts to counter them just blustering.

How much longer before you retire and take that ancient attitude with you? I know you are hoping they extend the age again. $85 in the right seat does not set you up for retirement very well. Maybe next time around you can get to the left seat.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

When I did not think you could do it, it went and did it. You posted an even more arrogant post then I thought even possible for you.

So in your all encompassing self entitled arrogant attitude. You know better than the FAA who designed and signs off on the training programs. The hiring boards at all the airlines. The instructors and check airmen at all of the airlines. The FAA inspectors that do line checks. You know better than all these people about this "new breed" of airline pilots.

Well hell if only you were dictator and you could make all of the decisions the would would be a better place with you in charge.

You must be a real joy to fly with. Some tired over the hill pilot living in the past. How many conversation start with you holding up two hands and saying "there I was"? Did you miss all of those CRM classes? That ME CAPTAIN, YOU SHUT UP BS went out with propellers.

Just can't stand it that a group would stand up to you can you? Man are you obsessed with these videos. Yes we have seen them. Yes they made their point. It must really be working if you are still going back and watching them. Except you have facts to counter them just blustering.

How much longer before you retire and take that ancient attitude with you? I know you are hoping they extend the age again. $85 in the right seat does not set you up for retirement very well. Maybe next time around you can get to the left seat.

" Man are you obsessed with these videos, Yes we have seen them" Priceless comments by the "KING OF ABSURD" ! You made these videos you moron! Next thing you know you will sue again and tell us who to call on the witness stand, oh you already did that, you think DUI DOUG, APA, AOL, and the UCC are going to tell the EAST, we will have to give you the "NIC" our "SCOPE" and CHANGE OF CONTROL" so DUI, the WEST(who has none of the provisions they seek to remove in their contract away), My guess mid JAN when the "REAL MONEY " shows up, the complexion of the last couple days events will have changed!.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I agree that usapa should remive DOH from the C&BL. It has no meaning teeth and only serves to limit the union during an arbitration. DOH never should have been in the C&BL, agreed. Interesting this opinion from one of the "founders" of usapa. Finally seeing your mistake?

What you fail to understand is that the rest of the pilots in this industry are not singled minded that DOH/LOS is the only factor.

Oh I think Hoban realizes exactly what he is saying. He said ratios not DOH/LOS or even relative. Because he knows apa has the numbers. They will want to ratio WB capts with WB capts. NB capt/NB capt. He knows they have a lot more. He also knows that DOH/LOS is asking for a staple. APA knows better than anyone the reaction that got last time. A reasonable ratio argument will go a long way in an arbitration. Something you east pilots need to understand.

I hope you are TIC about nationalizing airlines. Last thing I want to do is become a gov' ment employees.

I didn't make the mistake.

The "majority" thought it needed to be in there to get the East pilots to vote for USAPA.

Write this down: As a USAPA founder, I did not believe that it needed to be in the Constitution because it really came down to what the majority WOULD vote for. I also argued that it could work against us, like now, where the reps are limited to DOH when if the opposing party argues for the front of the line and were limiting OUR argument to less.

We SHOULD be arguing front of the line in arbitration and that is the end of it.

Neither you, I NOR Hoban have ANY clue how any arbitration will turn out, but I can tell you our reps should argue stapling the APA behind US Airways pilots. Then we have a fair argument. DOH is a middle ground argument and if we're going to play the game then yes, remove DOH from our Constitution and let's divide unionism further.

I personally don't really believe unionism works in the airlines because we can't strike and will never strike.

I'm a company man now. Write that down.

 

[Beancounter]

Didn't I say a long time ago, if we merge it will probably be be a ratio with credit for WBs? That way the AA pilots get most of the top spots, they win. Maybe in a year I can say, told you so🙂

Bean