Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Claxon]

Game over kids out west.

"Scott Kirby"

“As to the seniority integration issue, I think this is the way out of the box for them. For those of you that follow the industry, there has been this seniority fight between the former US Airways and the former America West pilots. And as long as that seniority dispute is happening and isn’t resolved by a court, they really can’t negotiate a single agreement with the company because they can’t agree on what’s going to happen with seniority. And they are waiting for a court to answer that question for them."

“This is a way to start over and — not start over completely, but at least have a fresh beginning. Today, you know what, the analogy I use is that they painted themselves into a corner into a room, and neither side can compromise. This is a way to start the process over in a new integration."

"Scott Kirby"
“And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

“In this case, there’ll be a joint contract in advance, and the seniority integration will happen."

“I’m encouraged that USAPA and APA, the two respective unions, are working well together and working jointly with the company. So I am optimistic that this ironically solves the largest hangover from the US Airways – America West transaction.”

http://aviationblog....r-us-airw.html/

 

[Claxon]

“And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I've had it from day 1 amigo. So, it logically follows then that you COMPLETELY understand that USAPA inherited the TA in its entirety right. That includes the Nic. Time passage is irrelevant. You also COMPLETELY understand USAPA has the VERY SAME DFR to the West pilots as ALPA did correct? ALPA was just as free as USAPA to abandon the Nic award PROVIDED a Legitimate Union Purpose existed to do so right?

ALPA did their level best to sell the AMW pilots down the river to keep the dues money flowing. Only problem...THERE WAS NO LUP THAT EVEN REMOTELY ALLOWED ALPA TO DISREGARD THE ARBITRATION. They would have done so in a heartbeat if they could have. Now that we agree that USAPA is 100% ALPA JUST LIKE APA WILL BE 100% USAPA if the merger moves fwd, you fully understand that USAPA, LIKE ALPA, MUST HAVE AN LUP TO DISREGARD THE NIC. RIGHT? Silver exactly spelled it out for you.

ALPA didn't have one, (despite millions of reasons to find one) USAPA was crushed by a Jury once already, the Company hasn't indicated even slightly that they're going to take on the OBVIOUS liability by allowing USAPA to break the law. If you're planning to say that temper tantrums and self hostage taking are all the LUP USAPA needs, spare me. All shot down before. In court. What else you got?

A self inflicted endless stalemate. That's what. And it's costing every "member" dearly. USAPA is eyeballs deep in the mud and helpless. Out of Airspeed, Altitude and ideas. Give one example that suggests otherwise...and no, proof of a self inflicted stalemate isn't actual proof of effectiveness...at least not in the sense a sane unionist would consider positive.

APA will inherit all of this as well...as I'm sure you understand fully,(at least you CLAIM to). You also must certainly understand that APA doesn't give a damn about the East pilots...certainly not enough to expose themselves to the VERY SAME OBVIOUS LIABILITY the company refuses to. USAPA dies, the Nic is certified. GAME OVER.

Hummel knows all of this, but then again, apparently so do you. Glad we're on the same page.

Merry Christmas.

What part of Binding Arbitration do they not understand? The Binding part or the Arbitration part?

Happy Solstice

 

[Claxon]

Mike Daley and Eddie Chandler, I have a nice video of their Aussie vacation. They even invited others to join them. See you in the morning.

 

[Claxon]

What part of Binding Arbitration do they not understand? The Binding part or the Arbitration part?

Happy Solstice

How is the waste management business going? Did you HR in Australia? What happened to Scott on the international flight? Inquiring people want to know.

 

[Move2CLT]

Mike Daley and Eddie Chandler, I have a nice video of their Aussie vacation. They even invited others to join them. See you in the morning.

Yep, you're still an f'ing retard.

 

[Claxon]

“And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened."

Scott Kirby

Your thoughts please?

 

[Claxon]

Mike Daley and Eddie Chandler, I have a nice video of their Aussie vacation. They even invited others to join them. See you in the morning.

I know Mike is still around. Does anyone know what Eddie is up to lately?

 

[Metroyet]

I know Mike is still around. Does anyone know what Eddie is up to lately?

Why did Scab Crimi storm out of the negotiations like a hysterical little girl and go home Early?

 

[Claxon]

Why did Scab Crimi storm out of the negotiations like a hysterical little girl and go home Early?

You call everyone a scab. Provide more info please on your accusations, I guarantee I have some on your folks.

Call up Mike Daley (Daley, Michael AFAP 89 America West Scab Export Operation) and tell him to check the forum in the morning, it will bring back some great memories of down under. Hey, where did Eddie Chandler (Chandler, Edward AFAP 89 America West Scab Export Operation) end up?

 

[Claxon]

Oh, the memories you west guys must have of the days you spent scabbing down under.

Can you share some stories with the rest of the forum about down under. Is it true the water went counter clockwise down the toilet and sink drain?

Now when you walked around the women and children of the Australian pilots, scabbing, was it as amusing to you as you say west pilots?


"Love him or hate him, Mike Conway is right about this, "We cannot afford to make policy and run this company based on the Jumpseat." His words not mine.
But, I agree and support his decision to send us to Australia. I am proud of the accomplishments we made and the professional manner with which we made them. Ansett Airlines has learned a lot from us about operating a deregulated airline.

The America West presence will be felt there long after we all come home."

I am sure there are women and children of the former Australian pilots that feel that way this holiday, but no one else.

Happy Holidays, scabs!

"Their wives, however, made their run-ins at the waterline. Fortunately, there weren’t too many of them.

I suppose they were experimenting with the tactic of making themselves look pitiful. They dragged their children around with them and planted them in front of you if you tried to move.

Well, what can one say? It was an interesting technique, but you could tell that the kids would really rather have been someplace else at the time.

In fact it was kind of hard to keep from laughing..........."

http://scabsr.us/duw1.htm

 

[traderjake]

This board is just like a crew room, except the pilots (and uninvited non-pilots who wander in) are anonymous, they routinely insult each other and act like bratty children, there's no one to tell us to behave and the beverage of choice is usually alcoholic rather than caffeinated.

No, this is an anonymous public forum.

The crew room has a lock on the door and requires a USAirways ID badge.

What you're describing should be the USAPA website forum, but it doesn't exist because USAPA don't allow discussion of dissenting views.

 

[A320 Driver]

Why did Scab Crimi storm out of the negotiations like a hysterical little girl and go home Early?

I'd like to know the answer to this question. Doesn't anybody know? Or are they not talking.

Driver...

 

[Claxon]

Drink this in you east idiots:


First, APA is going to have a choice to make early on - to file for Single Carrier or not. Under the Term Sheet they signed with Parker, the APA is required to file with the NMB no later than six months after the POR. Figure 2-4 months for the NMB investigation, and then APA will be the bargaining agent. Any timeline for SLI will be quite a ways after Single Carrier. (UAL/CAL are just now getting to the SLI.)

Second, the Company will be a party to any SLI arbitration under M/B, and they've said in legal filings in more than one venue that the only legal seniority list they have is the Nicolau. The Company filed the Dec Action asking what I suppose they thought to be an innocuous question, but wound up getting a federal judge saying very clearly that they are not entitled to any immunity from the West class so they had best be mindful of what they eventually agree to with USAPA in Section 6.

Third, if USAPA is defunct, I think a simple risk-reward analysis tells us everything we need to know concerning the use or non-use of the Nicolau. Who benefits? The East...about 3000 pilots out of what, 13,000? What is the risk? Clearly, an injunction filed in federal court by the West class to answer the DFR question. I don't know how a federal judge would rule with regards to ripeness, but I can tell you that the ripeness argument with an impending M/B arbitration takes on many substantive dimensions which would take a while for a court to vet. Addingtion was filed, tried, and appealed in the context of Section 6 negotiations. Only the federal courts are empowered to decide whether a union's proposal is a legitimate union objective - not arbitrators. So, while our case was grinding along in federal court, the only bargaining agent (APA) would be muddling along, unable to complete the pilot integration and having to deal with 35% of the pilots working at substantially lower wages than their operation. That is a scenario that APA has never tolerated, even when the smaller operation was only a couple of hundred pilots (Reno). I highly doubt they will tolerate just standing by while an issue which is really irrelevant to the reAAl AAmerican pilots plays out in court.

Fourth, ripeness is a double edged sword for everybody. For the West it would have been nice to not have the inane Tashima ruling, but on the other hand that decision realistically didn't change what would have happened had Judge Bybee's dissent been the majority opinion. USAPA has had one goal which is to delay, and they would have executed on that irrespective of the Ninth. The problem for Company and also the APA is that according to Judge Silver, neither can seek a judicial declaration as to what alternative is a Legitimate Union Purpose. USAPA argued in the Dec Action that the Addington rule applied, and Judge Silver reluctantly agreed with them. But that's taken how long so far? Two years and five months, and we still have the appeal to go which will be another 18 months at least (yes, I'm quite confident the company will appeal; they have to).

So, in the above context, does anyone really worry about DOH at this point? I don't.

Who wrote that stupid piece? Mitch Vaselino or Martyr Harper? Vaselino gives you the same moronic advice as the criminal lawyers of Leonidas. Too bad none of them has yet to stand in the legal system. Addington, The 9th, Silver and every other case. Does Vaselino charge when you lose, or is the bad advice free?
PS Add this to part 2. Silver also said the big one. You left out the most important part. The one where she said USAPA was free to bargain seniority. Vaselino lead you astray, again.

 

[cleardirect]

Hmmm, Boo Boo & his Spartans haven't corrected Mr Kirby in 7 months since article.



“That contract will be in place and so there will be a joint contract in place. And then more than likely the seniority issue will go through a process and ultimately get to arbitration. But because we will already have a joint contract in place, that arbitration will be binding. It will just get implemented.

“In the US Airways – America West case, it went to binding arbitration but there was a requirement as part of that that the two unions negotiate a joint contract with the company, which wasn’t done yet.

“And because it wasn’t done yet, the side that didn’t like it could prevent a joint contract from getting done. And because of that, the seniority integration never happened.

“In this case, there’ll be a joint contract in advance, and the seniority integration will happen.

“I’m encouraged that USAPA and APA, the two respective unions, are working well together and working jointly with the company. So I am optimistic that this ironically solves the largest hangover from the US Airways – America West transaction.”


FA

To be correct the side that did not like it has stopped a joint contract. Seniority was done. It just has not been implemented.

A joint contract will implement the completed seniority process. That joint contract can be between east and west or between east, west and American. It is still a joint contract. That would only leave seniority to be integrated between us airways using Nicolau and American.

There was never a vote on seniority. Because it was an agreement to use the result of arbitration and vote on a contract.