Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Claxon]

The lack of backbone has been an issue plagueing the profession for decades.

No, the bone has been the issue. The one you a$$holes gave TWA.

 

[Claxon]

Angry East FO Cyber Bullies unite! https://www.youtube....h?v=tkVXgSowbq4

Wow, another toolbag Leonidas deal. Yawn

 

[AAviator]

It's not that guys are coveting what AA guys will receive, it's the perceived injustice of paltry returns on massive givebacks. The east was told to take the hit and in the future when things improved they would share in the spoils.
Now we are being asked to accept another bankruptcy contract that will only let us catch up - and that'll take 6-8 years. Parker has not offered one red nickel in this deal, all the money is coming from AA and the financiers.
LCC should be able to cough up some cash in the form of a signing bonus - and I'm sorry, 10k before taxes just isn't enough.
And I won't even begin to mention what is being conceded that will never be recovered in this agreement. I don't care if the next contract negotiation is scheduled for tomorrow, these concessions will never be recovered.
NO.

Vet this post.. first from the AA pilot perspective, then from the LCC pilot perspective.

I suspect there's a lot of chest beating that cant be substantiated

 

[Claxon]

Just think. You westerners will get to wear hats like those fantastic AA guys. Oooooooh
The ones who were in denial about their impending bankruptcy. Actually had one of the morons on the jumps eat who could have left with 1.5 million but was staying. He said he could earn it back. Problem was he was 62. All of them were in denial. I remember they wouldn't t even let you ride their jumpseat. Because they didn't t have it in their contract. Unbelievable.

 

[AAviator]

Funny. You complain about having to pay for another airlines BK. Do you not see the irony of your complaint?

The west pilots were asked to pay for the east BK. and east pilots are demanding that the west to give up seniority too.

High Five!

 

[AAviator]

Really!

When ALPA told the east pilots they "know" it was going to be DOH. That did not happen. Then usapa came along and they "know" that Nicolau got it wrong and that the "gold standard" is DOH and Seham knew that he was going to throw out arbitration and the result of seniority integration was going to be DOH. Are you saying that east pilots have not conjured up a result?

This is getting interesting. East pilots now figuring out that all the arguments you guys have made over the years are now backfiring on you.

Better be careful. The APA may file a Rico suit soon.

There are ships in the harbor, loaded and ready to set sail...

 

[Claxon]

There are ships in the harbor, loaded and ready to set sail...

That s what they told the TWA pilots . And then the APA pirates showed up....

 

[AAviator]

This is a good one..

Just a few rhetorical and non-rhetorical questions.

If the MOU is voted down, how and when will we know that CoC has officially been triggered?

When it shows up in your paycheck.

Then what is a reasonable expectation for the length of time it will take to file, litigate and receive a ruling on a CoC grievance?


File? seconds. Litigate? years. Ruling, and appeals? decades.

Can we assume that early in this scenario USAPA will cease to exist?

Yes

Is it reasonable to assume that APA will not fund our fight and that we, east pilots only, will be asked to send money to fund this grievance?

Open your checkbook LOL!

In the meantime, as we negotiate with our APA counterparts over seniority integration and they ask for our payrates - which figures will we submit, LOA93 or 2002 Book Rates?

Payrates.... ? Thats an interesting position. I'll make sure my reps look at seniority by payrate!!!!

 

[Pi brat]

Well, first of all, fences aren't guaranteed. We didn't get any with AWA.


BS. There was a five year fence that came down when age 60 was modified. You want to talk about the pseudo pilot induced fence you've had since 2005? Talk about disengenuous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next. it's funny how you didn't comment on how the potential merger with US boosted your power to get more from AA.

We got more from AA due to the UCC's Jack Butler stepping in and breaking the stalemate that was stangling the timeline. AA mgmnt was content to steamroll through the APA in the hopes of a concentual agreement to exit BK with no loose ends and liability (exposure) out the back end. AA overreached and didn't have a solid enough case to do just that! Absent agreements with labor, the POR had too many holes.

To think that was due to USAPA OR THE LCC PILOT GROUP IS PURE FANTASY!

Finally, you will have to revive your claim from last week. What did you say then? Then whip some of that public school math on me, I think you're wrong.

Think again..., lets see your public math. Start with your own USAPA's pubication "flight plan to a merger". You know the one that talks about the 1.6 billion $ in reach of the LCC pilot group! Page 9. Don't forget the 16% retirement contribution!

Most AA pilots aren't tools like you, are they?


Calling me a tool? Lets see your math, and then an explanation of how this is within your reach absent AA... We've got the vast majority of it signed sealed and delivered without you!

Right, the fence came down at about the earliest we would have been able to have a joint bid with the west, SO NO FENCES. The psuedo fence is because of the flawed T/A that you guys learned from. It has cost both sides.

According to your guy at the roadshows, the "bidder-US" strengthened your hand. I trust him more than you.

On Jan 27th, in post #4892 you said:

"Based on retirements... in a coupe of years, a -current- East 320 captain will be making AT LEAST 100% more than he's making now based on the new contract and payrates going forward.."

Most people consider " a couple" about 2. 2 years from today would be 2/1/2015. I am a current east A320 captain, paid $124.88 an hour with a 10% DC contribution for an effective rate of $137.36. I'm on reserve, so lets go with 76X137.36=10,439.36 a month. So to make 100% more I would have to produce $20878.72, right? I actually averaged over 80 hrs a month last year, but we'll give you a headstart.

The MOU rates for an A320 Captain on 2/1/15 shows $186.53 with a 16% DC contribution for an effect rate of $216.37. Now let's say that because of the fences and attrition you are counting on I can be a block holder and I max out my month at 90 hrs. So 90X 216.37=$19.473.73. So, even with making the best/worst assumptions, you are wrong. And that is with an apples and oranges comparison. Apples to apples it's less. Absent a merger we will probably get a contract by 2015 and even if it is not as rich as yours, it would still close the gap. Good, yes, but not what you said.



You also told NYC busdriver "We have a signed CBA, with rates twice the East rates...." Also, not true, so I stick by my claim, you are a tool.

 

[Claxon]

Come on Kevin. You going to let this AA toolbag come in after TWA? You are one of them, but remember what they did to you. One can only imagine the dilemma....

 

[Claxon]

Metro?????

 

[Pi brat]

I stipulated that the four year fence would go down with the change of the retirement age in my post. Maybe we could institute an automatic 20 year fence to be implemented when a larger, angrier pilot group refuses to abide by an arbitration.

"We" can't guarantee any fences if we (LCC & APA) go to arbitration. That is a process of the final and binding arbitration. So we want all the money, all of the benefits, all of the pay that we are entitled to, all of the other guys benefits, all of the other guys toys, and we want it all right now...I've seen this somewhere before....

Oh, I remember. Comedian Billy Connolly's rant on union negotiations. A little raunchy but if the shoe fits....

Let's take a look at the DAL / NWAL merger. Ratioed integration. SMALL fences. BIG pay. Company does SO WELL that it negotiates a second post merger contract 7 MONTHS EARLY. Pilot group generally happy. Be still my heart: A fair ratioed integration, pay, benefits, and a union that works within the rules.

Ramble much. Oh yeah, silly me, I know you do!

We were talking about fences.

 

[AAviator]

I'm just curious how you might feel that you "would likely fare better without the NIC". If the NIC is used as the beginning point of our SLI process, and a ratioed integration takes place: your seniority would be determined by the arbitrators so as to reflect that ratio. DAL/NWAL went ratio based on size.

If one can take emotion out of it, it is a very simple mathematical equation.

If the list presented to the arbitrators is weighted with east pilots at the top, they will retire faster leaving the new list weighted with AA pilots at the top.

Simple math

 

[AAviator]

Yes. Per your APA guy, all that is exchanged is the data. The order is irrelevant. Its up to each side to put each other's list together. Technically they can place your pilots in ANY position they want, but they'd have to argue to the APA as to why and, failing that, they'll have to explain their methodology to the arbitrators. Your scope guy that was there was very clear about the data exchange and process. And just because one side reorders a list a certain way doesn't mean that's the way the arbitrators are going to come back with it exactly that way. They'll probably blend and reorder the lists according to what they think is fair.

Laughable from a reality perspective......

 

[Claxon]

If the list presented to the arbitrators is weighted with east pilots at the top, they will retire faster leaving the new list weighted with AA pilots at the top.

Simple math

Amazing conclusion Einstein