F/A Crew Scheduling Strikes Again

[Nor'Easta]

Here is the deal for the last 5 days:

1. Yes, you must answer your phone if CS calls you. If you don't your GUAR will not be protected. You can call back and see if they have anything and then take it. Then YOU WILL BE PAY PROTECTED.

2. You don't have to accept a trip greater in time or days then your original trip. If CS only has a trip greater in time and days then your original and you say no, YOU ARE PAY PROTECTED!

3. If CS calls you with a trip that will make you illegal for your next trip, you don't have to accept it. A MU trip to protect your GUAR can't cause a legality for your next trip. You are still PAY PROTECTED if you say no to a trip that causes such a legality.

4. KNOW YOUR CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Garfield1966]

YOU WILL BE PAY PROTECTED.[/b]

Wrong Last 5 days has nothing to do with your Guar. It only has to do with sequence protection. If you do not make contact with us for your preferences prior to us contacting you you will loose your sequence protection if you do not answer the phone. If you call back at a later time, you will not be protected for the sequence that you lost, you will only earn what you pick up.

YOU ARE PAY PROTECTED![/b]

Wrong Read the fine print. The contract only stipulates what time the sequence originates, it says nothing about termination. If you lost a turn on the 29th of Dec and I have a 3 day that signs in with in your obligation window it's yours or I dock your sequence protection. As long as it gets back and debrief ends by 2359 on the 31st of Dec, it's legal. I have been pay claimed on it a few times and the FA lost. The only requirement is that it gets back by the end of the month.

4. KNOW YOUR CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!!

You got this one right.

I am not sure why this is so hard. You guarantee has nothing to do with the last 5 days and is not affected. The only thing in question during the last 5 days is your sequence protection. I have been dealing with this 12 times a year for close to 10 years now. I think I have it figured out. If you want to trust the people above me with your pay check knock your self out but don't come whining to me afterward.

 

[operaations]

Ok Here I go ....Do not shoot the messenger. I only bring to you what is wrtten in your contract and the Handy AA/APFA little contract guide to make things easier.

read below and do with it what you want. Listen to galley talk and watch your pay check to see who is right or wrong

LAST FIVE (5) DAYS OF THE MONTH
CANCELLATION/ILLEGALITY PROTECTION:
1. Pay protection and obligation limited to contractual month in which
the sequence was scheduled to originate.
2. Applies only at origination of Flight Attendant’s last trip of the
month, including Make-Up, Option II and Optional Exchange.
3. Last trip of the month must originate in last five days of the month.
4. If Flight Attendant is at or above guarantee and wants to protect
her/his hours, s/he must:
a. Place her/his name on the make-up list for all days originally
scheduled to fly, including the eight (8) hour period after the
scheduled termination of the trip sequence lost or until midnight
of the last day of the contractual month.
b. Accept any trip offered that that originates up to eight (8) hours
after the scheduled termination of the trip sequence lost. Flight
Attendant must be legal and available for assignment.
1) If not offered such a trip on make-up, s/he is pay protected
for lost time.
2) If offered and actually flies a trip worth less than trip lost,
s/he is pay protected for the greater time.
5. If Flight Attendant is at or below guarantee:
a. No further obligation.
b. Only guarantee is protected.
23
3) If offered such a trip on make-up and declines the
assignment, pay protection is forfeited.


Page 23 of the AA APFA contract reference Guide....for your reading pleasure.

Remember this is not my opinion....it is not galley talk ...it is the real deal....i think you will find that as painful as it feels...GAR is for the most part correct

 

[kuro_kuma]

b. Accept any trip offered that that originates up to eight (8) hours
after the scheduled termination of the trip sequence lost. Flight
Attendant must be legal and available for assignment.

So is the f/a still legal or illegal for the first trip if it means the next trip will be lost? It's confusing. You're not really legal, but because reserve trips (and I think MU) override trips for the following month, it's like the 2nd trip would be considered illegal so the first one can be given out if there's nothing else.

 

[Nor'Easta]

Wrong Last 5 days has nothing to do with your Guar. It only has to do with sequence protection. If you do not make contact with us for your preferences prior to us contacting you you will loose your sequence protection if you do not answer the phone. If you call back at a later time, you will not be protected for the sequence that you lost, you will only earn what you pick up.



Wrong Read the fine print. The contract only stipulates what time the sequence originates, it says nothing about termination. If you lost a turn on the 29th of Dec and I have a 3 day that signs in with in your obligation window it's yours or I dock your sequence protection. As long as it gets back and debrief ends by 2359 on the 31st of Dec, it's legal. I have been pay claimed on it a few times and the FA lost. The only requirement is that it gets back by the end of the month.



I believe you are wrong with this as well but I will have to double check. The current month always take precedent over the next month. If I have a sequence that originates during your obligation window which gets back late on the 31st and makes you illegal for your early sin in on the 1st you have a choice. Either take the trip and get sequence protection for the sequence you lost OR refuse the sequence and keep your trip on the 1st but loose your sequence protection. Unless an excetpion has been made for the end of the month, current month always trumps next month.




You got this one right.

I am not sure why this is so hard. You guarantee has nothing to do with the last 5 days and is not affected. The only thing in question during the last 5 days is your sequence protection. I have been dealing with this 12 times a year for close to 10 years now. I think I have it figured out. If you want to trust the people above me with your pay check knock your self out but don't come whining to me afterward.

Garfy poo,

I think you need to go back to school and learn the APFA contract. I was correct on all the above. I double checked it and made a phone call to an APFA BOD.

Have a nice day D-H.

 

[Garfield1966]

[quote name='Nor'Easta' post='557501' date='Jan 2 2008, 08:02 AM']Garfy poo,

I think you need to go back to school and learn the APFA contract. I was correct on all the above. I double checked it and made a phone call to an APFA BOD.

Have a nice day D-H.[/quote]

If you think it will work for you knock your self out. It's one more seq protection I get to bust. Your APFA would not know the contract if it ran them over in a Mac truck. You have no idea how many times the seniors (some of whom have been there for over 20 years) have to correct the APFA. Like I tell FA's when they think I am wrong. "if I am wrong, the TM or what ever will be removed, if I am right it stays. Your choice." I have been up ther for nearly 10 years and have been pay claimed once and that was because I missed a phone number on MU. If you mentioned a Guar and the last 5 days and they did not say anything to correct you that mean right there that they have no clue.

By the way, if you will read Ops post you will notice it is directly out of the contract. Please show me where any thing you posted is correct?


kuro_kuma,

Yes you are correct. this month take priority over next month. If the trip you are obligated for at the end of the current month makes you illegal for the trip in the next month you have a choice. 1. Refuse the trip, loose your sequence protection and keep your next trip or 2. Take the trip, get your sequence protection and loose your next trip.

 

[nbmcg01]

If you think it will work for you knock your self out. It's one more seq protection I get to bust. Your APFA would not know the contract if it ran them over in a Mac truck. You have no idea how many times the seniors (some of whom have been there for over 20 years) have to correct the APFA. Like I tell FA's when they think I am wrong. "if I am wrong, the TM or what ever will be removed, if I am right it stays. Your choice." I have been up ther for nearly 10 years and have been pay claimed once and that was because I missed a phone number on MU. If you mentioned a Guar and the last 5 days and they did not say anything to correct you that mean right there that they have no clue.

By the way, if you will read Ops post you will notice it is directly out of the contract. Please show me where any thing you posted is correct?


kuro_kuma,

Yes you are correct. this month take priority over next month. If the trip you are obligated for at the end of the current month makes you illegal for the trip in the next month you have a choice. 1. Refuse the trip, loose your sequence protection and keep your next trip or 2. Take the trip, get your sequence protection and loose your next trip.

This is why you have a grievance process...NOD

 

[Garfield1966]

This is why you have a grievance process...NOD

I/we have been pay claimed on this issue countless times. The above procedures have not lost yet. Would it not be better and less expensive to know what the right answer is before hand? I am not going to loose any money on this. The contract was pasted a few posts up. Part 4b relates to one of the issues address. The fact that is does not state that the end/beginning of month conflicts are not addressed differently relates to another issue.

Bottom line is if you want to believe what Nor Easter and a BOD member said (wonder when the last time he actually flew much less opened up and actually read the potions pertaining to the question) knock your self out. I could care less because it does not affect me. Jim posted a statement/question and I offered him an explanation.

The procedures for the last 5 days are substantially different from the rest of the month. For some reason most have a difficult time understanding them just at the difference between 30/7 and 7D legalities (...But I had a 24 hour break .. why do I still have a 30/7?).

 

[jimntx]

Garfield, it just interests me how often it happens that the only possible trip that Scheduling has to offer in situations like this will screw you over on your next trip. I also find it interesting that there were two people senior to me on the MU list for the same reason--sequence protection. They were still there the next day. I talked with one of them. She said no one from Scheduling ever called her.

Now, according to the contract, which you and Op are so very good at quoting, the MU list is supposed to be worked in descending (or, ascending depending on your point of view ) seniority order. Not only was one person senior to me not even called, that still left 3 people senior to me on the list. Are you going to try to convince me that the scheduler contacted all 3 in less than 10 minutes?

As you posted above, "Yes you are correct. this month take priority over next month. If the trip you are obligated for at the end of the current month makes you illegal for the trip in the next month you have a choice. 1. Refuse the trip, loose your sequence protection and keep your next trip or 2. Take the trip, get your sequence protection and loose your next trip."

My point exactly! The only reason that I posted this is that I have heard from other f/as that this has happened time and time again. When you (Scheduling, not you personally) are working the make-up list--particularly for sequence protection--the ONLY trip you have to offer will create an illegality on the next trip. What a coincidence!

Hope you all feel good about contributing to the next executive bonus fund.

 

[operaations]

Garfield, it just interests me how often it happens that the only possible trip that Scheduling has to offer in situations like this will screw you over on your next trip. I also find it interesting that there were two people senior to me on the MU list for the same reason--sequence protection. They were still there the next day. I talked with one of them. She said no one from Scheduling ever called her.

Now, according to the contract, which you and Op are so very good at quoting, the MU list is supposed to be worked in descending (or, ascending depending on your point of view ) seniority order. Not only was one person senior to me not even called, that still left 3 people senior to me on the list. Are you going to try to convince me that the scheduler contacted all 3 in less than 10 minutes?

As you posted above, "Yes you are correct. this month take priority over next month. If the trip you are obligated for at the end of the current month makes you illegal for the trip in the next month you have a choice. 1. Refuse the trip, loose your sequence protection and keep your next trip or 2. Take the trip, get your sequence protection and loose your next trip."

My point exactly! The only reason that I posted this is that I have heard from other f/as that this has happened time and time again. When you (Scheduling, not you personally) are working the make-up list--particularly for sequence protection--the ONLY trip you have to offer will create an illegality on the next trip. What a coincidence!

Hope you all feel good about contributing to the next executive bonus fund.

Jim...come on enow I thought you were better than this. All I did is post the page and the words from the contract. I think the entire last 5 days of the month issue is crap. I think if you lose a trip in the last 5 days of the month due to a operational issue than you should be paid for it. I also think you should not be allowed to bid yourself illegal .

Garfield and I do the same thing. We work with what is given to us. Just as every scheduler in here does. no one is singled out for any reason. We offer the trips that are open for what ever reason they are open. I would love to look at your exact situation to see what happened and why it happened. Maybe the senior flight attendants above you were not called because they did not put themselves on the list. I would not know because i did not see the list. I try not to assume or take what i read persoanlly. Relax...the main problem is the contract and the people who negotiated it.

Dont shoot the messengers.

 

[Garfield1966]

Jim,


Do you really think we wanted to open up more trips for the 1-3 Jan 08? We are lazy by nature. We have no interest in opening up more trips that we have to cover. You are making an accusation without even knowing whether or not it is even true. Did you even ask if there were any other trips? What did the scheduler say?

How someone shows on the MU list/search depends on their hours. We pull a list of the people on MU first. That has everyone on it. It does not matter if you are flying the next day, hours are at 150, you’re on the sick list or whatever. If your name is on the list you are on the list. We then pull a search. The only people on the search are those who are legal for whatever trips are in OT at the time the list is run. If it is the end of the month, it is programmed to ignore the trip at the beginning of the month. The one thing it is not programmed for is for those people who are above 85 hours or those would be above 85 hours with any of the trips in OT. The people who at the end of the month who lost a trip (last 5 days) and who are obligated but are above 85 hours will not search legal for anything. They will have a little * by their name on the list.

So if the two others that you are referring to were above 85 hours and you were not in all likely hood they got a free ride because who ever ran MU did not look at the list and went by the search.

As for the time issue. When I call MU I take about 1 to 2 min per person. Usually closer to 1 min. The phine usually rings about 5 times before the machine picks up, I hit *, # or 1 to skip the message (works about 50% of the time) and “This is X with Crew skd calling for MU on the (date) call if you want to flyâ€￾. The next make is already on my screen and I hit dial the second I hang up. With 3 people I would have 4 min left over to dick around.

You are aware that if you ask me “are there any other trips I can flyâ€￾ and I say no you can pay claim me and win right? You are aware that we know that right? You think I am hiding trips from you? You think by opening up more trips on Jan 1-3 is helping anyone? It is cheaper for us to pay you sequence protection than to pay understaffing to a crew on the trip we opened up because we do not have the manning to cover it.

What benefit is there to me taking you off the trip? BTW, when I call MU most people want to pick up a trip that bumps them off the next on. I always tell them that this will bump you off your next trip and in the nearly 10 years I have been doing this I cannot remember one that nah, I’ll keep my trip. They have a whole month to find a trip to replace it.

Here is the deal. I am not your nanny, I’m not your guardian angel. When Crew skd calls for MU or whatever, know your legalities. I will tell you that you are coming off a trip. I do not believe we have to tell you. This is your schedule. This is your pay check. This is your lively hood. I suggest you all learn to ask the right questions. I will answer whatever you ask me. My job is to fill the sequences according to the contract. I do not know what your priorities are unless you tell me. I am working 2 or 3 bases and I am on a time crunch. I am not going to give you any more information than I am required too unless you ask me.

 

[jimntx]

In a base that only has S80s and 757s and there is never anything other than minimum crew, we both know there is no understaffing pay being paid to anyone, any time. I also know of no trips in SLT that were cancelled due to crew shortages. Were there any?

If you are short of manning, there is something seriously wrong with the way planning and scheduling is operating at AA. I can't find anyone at SLT who knows anyone who got within 20 hours of flying their guarantees on reserve in December. You mentioned understaffing pay. How much are we paying for all this unused labor?

The two reserves I talked to finished the month with 47 and 52 hours. One was junior and the other was fairly senior; so, the lack of utilization seems to be across the board.

 

[L1011Ret]

Jim,


Do you really think we wanted to open up more trips for the 1-3 Jan 08? We are lazy by nature. We have no interest in opening up more trips that we have to cover. You are making an accusation without even knowing whether or not it is even true. Did you even ask if there were any other trips? What did the scheduler say?

How someone shows on the MU list/search depends on their hours. We pull a list of the people on MU first. That has everyone on it. It does not matter if you are flying the next day, hours are at 150, you’re on the sick list or whatever. If your name is on the list you are on the list. We then pull a search. The only people on the search are those who are legal for whatever trips are in OT at the time the list is run. If it is the end of the month, it is programmed to ignore the trip at the beginning of the month. The one thing it is not programmed for is for those people who are above 85 hours or those would be above 85 hours with any of the trips in OT. The people who at the end of the month who lost a trip (last 5 days) and who are obligated but are above 85 hours will not search legal for anything. They will have a little * by their name on the list.

So if the two others that you are referring to were above 85 hours and you were not in all likely hood they got a free ride because who ever ran MU did not look at the list and went by the search.

As for the time issue. When I call MU I take about 1 to 2 min per person. Usually closer to 1 min. The phine usually rings about 5 times before the machine picks up, I hit *, # or 1 to skip the message (works about 50% of the time) and “This is X with Crew skd calling for MU on the (date) call if you want to flyâ€￾. The next make is already on my screen and I hit dial the second I hang up. With 3 people I would have 4 min left over to dick around.

You are aware that if you ask me “are there any other trips I can flyâ€￾ and I say no you can pay claim me and win right? You are aware that we know that right? You think I am hiding trips from you? You think by opening up more trips on Jan 1-3 is helping anyone? It is cheaper for us to pay you sequence protection than to pay understaffing to a crew on the trip we opened up because we do not have the manning to cover it.

What benefit is there to me taking you off the trip? BTW, when I call MU most people want to pick up a trip that bumps them off the next on. I always tell them that this will bump you off your next trip and in the nearly 10 years I have been doing this I cannot remember one that nah, I’ll keep my trip. They have a whole month to find a trip to replace it.

Here is the deal. I am not your nanny, I’m not your guardian angel. When Crew skd calls for MU or whatever, know your legalities. I will tell you that you are coming off a trip. I do not believe we have to tell you. This is your schedule. This is your pay check. This is your lively hood. I suggest you all learn to ask the right questions. I will answer whatever you ask me. My job is to fill the sequences according to the contract. I do not know what your priorities are unless you tell me. I am working 2 or 3 bases and I am on a time crunch. I am not going to give you any more information than I am required too unless you ask me.

Garfi, maybe you can helps out. Spouse bid a line in January. She was awarded bid Leave for the last 15 days. Her line was reworked by a trader so she now gets only about 28 hours credit before the bid leave. Will she be paid for 35 hours for the first two weeks, and if so will she be balanced up to 35 hours?

 

[operaations]

Garfi, maybe you can helps out. Spouse bid a line in January. She was awarded bid Leave for the last 15 days. Her line was reworked by a trader so she now gets only about 28 hours credit before the bid leave. Will she be paid for 35 hours for the first two weeks, and if so will she be balanced up to 35 hours?

I can help you with that one. The minute a trade service touched her line she lost her gtd of 35 hours. she will no get paid only what she flies.

 

[L1011Ret]

I can help you with that one. The minute a trade service touched her line she lost her gtd of 35 hours. she will no get paid only what she flies.

Thank you very much. Appreciate your help as we have trouble finding all that stuff in the contract.