Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.
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Kev3188
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Can.
Not "hope the company grants us...," or "if we're lucky we might..."
Can (and will).
An empowered workforce is a beautiful thing.
Not "hope the company grants us...," or "if we're lucky we might..."
Can (and will).
An empowered workforce is a beautiful thing.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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with all due respect, if the IAM ads above were dragged into court, they would be sued for false advertising.
They cannot say with any certainty that a union can do anything, including negotiating any item. A union, even if installed, cannot negotiate something a company is not willing to negotiate.
Further, it is amazing the number of people who trashed me for using words like CAN and MIGHT regarding DL but now try to say with certainty that the IAM and DL employees WILL DO (with certainty) something they cannot.
I have absolutely no problems if the IAM wants to campaign and there are a couple DL employees who want to hold onto the hope that the IAM could do something for them, but DL employees have repeatedly said they are not interested in further unionization and even if a union is installed, it is far from certain that a union could make any difference on any of the items they have listed.
Further, it is blatantly a lie to argue that pensions could be any more secure. Every US airline offers at least some 401K benefits which the IRS and DOL do consider pensions. And that money is immediately credited to the employee's account.
Further, there are more and more articles showing that the few remaining defined benefit pensions including multi-employer programs such as the IAM's will face funding problems just like the legacy carriers faced.
A 401k is a pension, it is the most stable and secure type of retirement vehicle from the perspective of the employee having control over his/her own funds, and airline employees who are unionized simply have not succeeded if they have asked in returning to a company sponsored DB plan.
They cannot say with any certainty that a union can do anything, including negotiating any item. A union, even if installed, cannot negotiate something a company is not willing to negotiate.
Further, it is amazing the number of people who trashed me for using words like CAN and MIGHT regarding DL but now try to say with certainty that the IAM and DL employees WILL DO (with certainty) something they cannot.
I have absolutely no problems if the IAM wants to campaign and there are a couple DL employees who want to hold onto the hope that the IAM could do something for them, but DL employees have repeatedly said they are not interested in further unionization and even if a union is installed, it is far from certain that a union could make any difference on any of the items they have listed.
Further, it is blatantly a lie to argue that pensions could be any more secure. Every US airline offers at least some 401K benefits which the IRS and DOL do consider pensions. And that money is immediately credited to the employee's account.
Further, there are more and more articles showing that the few remaining defined benefit pensions including multi-employer programs such as the IAM's will face funding problems just like the legacy carriers faced.
A 401k is a pension, it is the most stable and secure type of retirement vehicle from the perspective of the employee having control over his/her own funds, and airline employees who are unionized simply have not succeeded if they have asked in returning to a company sponsored DB plan.
A 401k is NOT a pension, it was created to be a supplemental retirement plan.
A 401k is not guaranteed like a defined benefit plan is under the PBGC.
The IAM is not lying, it says CAN, not will.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/10-things-401k-plans-wont-tell-you-2012-11-09
A 401k is not guaranteed like a defined benefit plan is under the PBGC.
The IAM is not lying, it says CAN, not will.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/10-things-401k-plans-wont-tell-you-2012-11-09
WorldTraveler
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argue with the Dept. of Labor, not me.
Their definition of "pension" includes defined contribution plans.
"The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) covers two types of pension plans: defined benefit plans and defined contribution plans."
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/retirement/typesofplans.htm
And it still doesn't change that no union has succeed in converting employees back from a terminated or frozen DB plan to a company-sponsored DB plan.
All the IAM has done is put some workers in DC plans - IF the company agrees - or the IAM's multi-employer fund. There is no assurance that an employer will contribute to an outside DB plan and most importantly that the contribution will be larger than what can be obtained via a 401K DC plan.
The IAM COULD do a lot of things - but they might not succeed at obtaining anything
And until DL employees change their consistent pattern of voting against further unionization, the only thing ceratin is that unions CANNOT do anything.
Their definition of "pension" includes defined contribution plans.
"The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) covers two types of pension plans: defined benefit plans and defined contribution plans."
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/retirement/typesofplans.htm
And it still doesn't change that no union has succeed in converting employees back from a terminated or frozen DB plan to a company-sponsored DB plan.
All the IAM has done is put some workers in DC plans - IF the company agrees - or the IAM's multi-employer fund. There is no assurance that an employer will contribute to an outside DB plan and most importantly that the contribution will be larger than what can be obtained via a 401K DC plan.
The IAM COULD do a lot of things - but they might not succeed at obtaining anything
And until DL employees change their consistent pattern of voting against further unionization, the only thing ceratin is that unions CANNOT do anything.
Kev3188
Veteran
No they wouldn't.WorldTraveler said:
...Or more correctly, someone could sue of they wanted to, but their case would have no merit...
A 401k is not a pension, it is not protected by the PBGC, there are 401ks and there are DCPs.
Is a Roth 401k IRA a pension?
A 401k is a supplemental retirement plan, it was not designed nor made to be someone's primary retirement income.
Is a Roth 401k IRA a pension?
A 401k is a supplemental retirement plan, it was not designed nor made to be someone's primary retirement income.
Would you have a link to support that (other than to a wikipedia article)? For some people, sure, the 401k was to supplement. For others, it was the modern replacement for a DB plan. Most people in the private sector don't have a DB pension as their "primary retirement income." Most airline employees no longer have DB pension that's accruing additional benefit, since most have been frozen or terminated.700UW said:
I'm certain that in all cases, the Southwest Airlines employees will enjoy a much more comfortable and secure retirement than the equivalent US Airways employees. WN has never had a defined benefit pension, or what you call a "primary retirement income" source.
What's that IAM slogan again? Mediocre pay, but at least we got a multi-employer pension plan thru the IAM.
I have to find the article that was written by Forbes, I have posted it before.
Both US and UA all IAM members have a defined benefit plan.
Edit, found:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreybrown/2014/02/17/income-as-the-outcome-reframing-the-401k-plan/
More:
http://www.ebri.org/pdf/publications/facts/0205fact.a.pdf
Both US and UA all IAM members have a defined benefit plan.
Edit, found:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreybrown/2014/02/17/income-as-the-outcome-reframing-the-401k-plan/
More:
http://www.ebri.org/pdf/publications/facts/0205fact.a.pdf
WorldTraveler
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regardless of what the original intent was, and I am not debating it, 401k plans are the norm for modern America.
And, in the airline industry, there is no going back to defined benefit plans at the airlines.
Multi-employer plans such as the IAM's are the only alternative - and the simple fact is that many employees receive pension benefits offered by 401ks in the airline industry that are more valuable than the IAM's plan.
And the overall health of remaining DB plans are far from certain for the same reason that airlines dumped their plans and many governments are doing the same - the bottom could fall out of the stock market and those who are expected to keep the plans funded are left holding the bag. Employers aren't going to take that risk. Retirement benefits are like every other cost - known in advance and paid. Companies are not going to assume the risk for an unknown benefit for employees - and if they do, such as with multi-employer plans, the benefits will be far lower precisely because there is a risk associated in an DB plan.
Unions are one of the last resorts for defined benefit plans and they do it because they think they can convince enough people that it is a valuable benefit.
A look at the economics shows that the "promise" of a defined benefit comes at a high cost compared to what could otherwise be obtained. AA and DL both have decent 401k matches - but they expect employees to take some responsibility for their their retirement planning just as is expected with managing health care costs. that kind of thinking is counter to the union mindset and yet Americans "GET" that they have to work to protect their own future and can't expect someone else - including a union - to provide security for them.
I can absolutely assure you that a number of pro-union people on this forum will receive major portions of their retirement - not just a supplement - because of their own savings.
Good on them. actually, the greatest accolades to them.
Yes, employers need to contribute but anyone who expects that anyone other than themselves is going to provide financial security will be sorely disappointed.
And, in the airline industry, there is no going back to defined benefit plans at the airlines.
Multi-employer plans such as the IAM's are the only alternative - and the simple fact is that many employees receive pension benefits offered by 401ks in the airline industry that are more valuable than the IAM's plan.
And the overall health of remaining DB plans are far from certain for the same reason that airlines dumped their plans and many governments are doing the same - the bottom could fall out of the stock market and those who are expected to keep the plans funded are left holding the bag. Employers aren't going to take that risk. Retirement benefits are like every other cost - known in advance and paid. Companies are not going to assume the risk for an unknown benefit for employees - and if they do, such as with multi-employer plans, the benefits will be far lower precisely because there is a risk associated in an DB plan.
Unions are one of the last resorts for defined benefit plans and they do it because they think they can convince enough people that it is a valuable benefit.
A look at the economics shows that the "promise" of a defined benefit comes at a high cost compared to what could otherwise be obtained. AA and DL both have decent 401k matches - but they expect employees to take some responsibility for their their retirement planning just as is expected with managing health care costs. that kind of thinking is counter to the union mindset and yet Americans "GET" that they have to work to protect their own future and can't expect someone else - including a union - to provide security for them.
I can absolutely assure you that a number of pro-union people on this forum will receive major portions of their retirement - not just a supplement - because of their own savings.
Good on them. actually, the greatest accolades to them.
Yes, employers need to contribute but anyone who expects that anyone other than themselves is going to provide financial security will be sorely disappointed.
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