How Come The Pilots Know More Than The Twu

[Buck]

i7915 the truth is AA did not want to cut the mechanics pay and benefits or lay off more than they did that was the twu's idea .AA wanted to cut fleet service and be able to use more part time workers on the ramp. The mechanics pay has been competitive with the rest of the indrustry for years including the low cost carriers. this is the problem with having workers with different skill levels represented by the same union. The sooner we build and prove the concept of craft unions the sooner we gain some control over the greedy self serving executives and rid ourselves of the leeches known as the "industrial unions". If you really want to gain insight into the strength of craft unions, talk to anyone who has moved here from Italy.

I agree with almost every thing you have said.


However the statement

The mechanics pay has been competitive with the rest of the industry for years including the low cost carriers.

I disagree with.

The mechanics at American have always been the leader in concessions since 1983. The TWU is the architect of the concessionary contract for the mechanic and related. The TWU has a history of given concessions of this type within the transit system. If by competitive, you mean at the top of the pay scale, that is not a true statement. The TWU has always negotiated pennies above the existing leader and then before a contract is barely begun, the TWU lags again. Now since the latest debacle, they are last in the majors, even those in bankruptcy. Then there is the SRP/OSM, they are not competitive either. At a starting rate $8.89 an hour, this is much lower than any low cost carrier.

 

[local 12 proud]

i don't beleive the regionals or the private sector of aviation starts an a&p at such shameful pay as $8.89 an hour......! this is disgraceful to say the least.

 

[local 12 proud]

i started out in the aviation industry in 1987 working at a third party SWEAT shop making $10.25 an hour, thats almost 20 years ago!!!!!! what gives? seem's every other trade has continued to gain ground except the aircraft technician. i remember a friend who i went to a&p school with in 1985 opted to stay in his previous trade rather than work for $10.00 an hour....... HE HUNG DRYWALL FOR $18.00 AN HOUR!

 

[j7915]

i7915 the truth is AA did not want to cut the mechanics pay and benefits or lay off more than they did that was the twu's idea .AA wanted to cut fleet service and be able to use more part time workers on the ramp. The mechanics pay has been competitive with the rest of the indrustry for years including the low cost carriers. this is the problem with having workers with different skill levels represented by the same union. The sooner we build and prove the concept of craft unions the sooner we gain some control over the greedy self serving executives and rid ourselves of the leeches known as the "industrial unions". If you really want to gain insight into the strength of craft unions, talk to anyone who has moved here from Italy.

Last I read in the news Alitalia is going broke.

How about some references to your claim that AA didn't want to cut amt pay and bennies? Even if we were in separate unions do you think fleet service would just take a cut without the amts giving anything up?

Do you think the pilots or FAs would give anything unless the amts did also?

Just watch NWA when the pilots make their proposals it will be based on everyone else giving also, same at Delta. Maintenance can give two ways, concessions or outsourcing. Being in overhaul guess what I rather support within reason?

 

[Bob Owens]

Last I read in the news Alitalia is going broke.

How about some references to your claim that AA didn't want to cut amt pay and bennies? Even if we were in separate unions do you think fleet service would just take a cut without the amts giving anything up?

Do you think the pilots or FAs would give anything unless the amts did also?

Just watch NWA when the pilots make their proposals it will be based on everyone else giving also, same at Delta. Maintenance can give two ways, concessions or outsourcing. Being in overhaul guess what I rather support within reason?

J7915

Would you say that unions in Europe are stronger or weaker than those in the US?

I'm going to assume that you agree with just about everyone else on both sides of the fence and say stronger.

Alitalia may be going broke, or claiming it like AA, but their workers will not agree to cuts like the TWU did.

The Transit Authority of New York City claimed they were going broke too-all the experts and Sonny Hall agreed. Local 100 did not, and since it is a quasi utility the truth eventually came out that Local 100 was right.

Back in 1994 AA claimed that it was going to be unable to compete, they got a six year six percent contract and went on to make something like 20 consecutive quarters of record profits.

The fact is that the TWU claimed that they would never get hoodwinked again after the 1995 debacle and they went on to do worse.

To me it sounds like you are blaming the unions for Alitalias problems. In fact I've often read comments from you that are pro-management. You have said that it makes sense to shift work away from higher skilled, top paid workers to lower paid workers, as long as you personally were not directly affected,you have bragged that the TWU International is structured like and just as undemocratic as most corporations and now you appear to be blaming unions for the poor performance of companies. J7915, for someone who claims to be a 'Union man" you sure have some strange points of view. Has the TWU twisted you that much that you dont know the difference between the workers interests and the corporations interests?

In your post you say that "Maintenance can give two ways, concessions or outsourcing". Well there is another option-NO. That is what the unions of Europe would do. That is what any real union would do. Basically you are saying that workers and unions are powerless and must give what the company dictates. What kind of a "union man" would say that "you can give one way or the other but you must submit to the company either way"? Arent unions supposed to be a means where workers join together to fight to keep what they have gained? And even if cuts were absolutely neccissary why would any union agree to six years of cuts to deal with a shorter-term cyclical problem? At what point do concessions become unreasonable? Try living where AA makes its money on the "reasonable" concessions you put in place!

In your desperate efforts to defend the TWU you time and time again take an anti labor view. A while back you took great delight when I used to spar with AMFA Dave on the Insolidarity BB. However the arguements that you put forth now are more pro-company, anti worker, anti labor than anything he ever put out. Dave and I battled over RTW and Conservative politics but here you promote the exact same end results that those who promote RTW and Conservative politics seek-lower wages and benifits for workers, higher profits for companies and shareholders. The only exception is that you still want workers to fork over dues to corrupt unions that accept kickbacks for concessions as their corporate styled democracies prevent those members from having recourse or the ability to change the direction of the union.

 

[Rusty Bullethole]

Just a comment from an outsider.

I am an AMT for AA based in Europe. We don't have any union representation. We did consider it a few years back but decided against it as there wasn't really a viable union available that could represent our trade. Instead we have a works commitee representative who we use as a mediator for any management/employee negotiations.
I have to say that it works extremely well and we have a pretty good working relationship with management.
It does seem from reading these forums that being involved with unions doesn't really achieve much apart from argument.

 

[Bob Owens]

Just a comment from an outsider.

I am an AMT for AA based in Europe. We don't have any union representation. We did consider it a few years back but decided against it as there wasn't really a viable union available that could represent our trade. Instead we have a works commitee representative who we use as a mediator for any management/employee negotiations.
I have to say that it works extremely well and we have a pretty good working relationship with management.
It does seem from reading these forums that being involved with unions doesn't really achieve much apart from argument.

Can you answer a few questions?

What country are you in?

How much vacation (Holiday) do you get?

How much sick time do you get?

How many paid bank or national holidays do you get?

If you work those Holidays how are you compensated?

How much was your (or top) pay cut last year?

What is your hourly pay rate and in what currency?

What is your over time rate?

Are there multiple overtime rates depending on hours worked?

What are your shift premiums? (Extra pay for working nights or weekends)

What is your pension formula-including government?

How many hours is your regular workweek?

How many hours elapse from the start of your normal workday to punch out-including breaks and lunch? For instance we punch in at 06:00 and out at 14:30 for eight hours pay.

 

[j7915]

J7915

Would you say that unions in Europe are stronger or weaker than those in the US?

I'm going to assume that you agree with just about everyone else on both sides of the fence and say stronger.

Alitalia may be going broke, or claiming it like AA, but their workers will not agree to cuts like the TWU did.

The Transit Authority of New York City claimed they were going broke too-all the experts and Sonny Hall agreed. Local 100 did not, and since it is a quasi utility the truth eventually came out that Local 100 was right.

Back in 1994 AA claimed that it was going to be unable to compete, they got a six year six percent contract and went on to make something like 20 consecutive quarters of record profits.

The fact is that the TWU claimed that they would never get hoodwinked again after the 1995 debacle and they went on to do worse.

To me it sounds like you are blaming the unions for Alitalias problems. In fact I've often read comments from you that are pro-management. You have said that it makes sense to shift work away from higher skilled, top paid workers to lower paid workers, as long as you personally were not directly affected,you have bragged that the TWU International is structured like and just as undemocratic as most corporations and now you appear to be blaming unions for the poor performance of companies. J7915, for someone who claims to be a 'Union man" you sure have some strange points of view. Has the TWU twisted you that much that you dont know the difference between the workers interests and the corporations interests?

In your post you say that "Maintenance can give two ways, concessions or outsourcing". Well there is another option-NO. That is what the unions of Europe would do. That is what any real union would do. Basically you are saying that workers and unions are powerless and must give what the company dictates. What kind of a "union man" would say that "you can give one way or the other but you must submit to the company either way"? Arent unions supposed to be a means where workers join together to fight to keep what they have gained? And even if cuts were absolutely neccissary why would any union agree to six years of cuts to deal with a shorter-term cyclical problem? At what point do concessions become unreasonable? Try living where AA makes its money on the "reasonable" concessions you put in place!

In your desperate efforts to defend the TWU you time and time again take an anti labor view. A while back you took great delight when I used to spar with AMFA Dave on the Insolidarity BB. However the arguements that you put forth now are more pro-company, anti worker, anti labor than anything he ever put out. Dave and I battled over RTW and Conservative politics but here you promote the exact same end results that those who promote RTW and Conservative politics seek-lower wages and benifits for workers, higher profits for companies and shareholders. The only exception is that you still want workers to fork over dues to corrupt unions that accept kickbacks for concessions as their corporate styled democracies prevent those members from having recourse or the ability to change the direction of the union.

Bob, the unions in Europe are also not afraid to be actually involved in politics. In some ways they are the other political party. But they are also socialist, so there is no way I see you and AMFADave going that route.

How long will Alitalia be around? KLM is merging, SwissAir is gone so is Sabena. I'd say Alitalia is only going to hang around as long as the taxpayers of Italia or the EU will tolerate the subsedies. I do blame the unions for part of Alitalia's problems, they have been milking the Italian taxpayer.

Interesting that you want to support featherbedding in Italy, while the AMFA organizers here in Tulsa and many of his claque advocate layoffs, to maintain their one size fits all paychecks, and their buddies at UAL are whinning for extra pay for taxi-tow.

Your argument about the NYC transit authority are not based on market economy. I don't see the NYCTA being allowed to shutdown anytime soon. They may privatice, but then you have another ball game entirely.

You seem to be concentrating on the fact that AA seems to do better after contracts. Which comes first?The predictable cost for a 5-6 year contract or maybe, the economy is just not that easy to predict. I'll go for the middle ground. It only takes a few passengers per flight to change the profit loss picture. As has been pointed out recently AA's management is supposed to be STUPID, if so then how come they can negotiate these wonderful contracts just before the business turns around?

If amts are so wonderfully intelligent and prescient about the future, then why is AMFA as an all amt union: a, loosing members at NWA, and at SWA trying to change a successful business plan, i. e. no overhaul?

Finally to another post from someone else, the pilots are not smarter, they have the legislative clout of exclusive ownership to their job, and the working conditions. The pilots also have almost all college education, many have military officer's background and are trained and willing to be objective about their situation.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, the unions in Europe are also not afraid to be actually involved in politics. In some ways they are the other political party. But they are also socialist, so there is no way I see you and AMFADave going that route.

Once again to reveal your limited perspective. You should be careful with your assumptions.

How long will Alitalia be around? KLM is merging, SwissAir is gone so is Sabena. I'd say Alitalia is only going to hang around as long as the taxpayers of Italia or the EU will tolerate the subsedies. I do blame the unions for part of Alitalia's problems, they have been milking the Italian taxpayer.

And so are TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Peoples Express, Eastern, Air Florida, Northeastern and scores of other US airlines. Were the unions of all those airlines to blame for their demise? The fact is that the unions in this industry will do anything to keep the airline where they have members in business at any cost to the workers. All the airline unions should have merged into one as soon as the industry went deregulated and they knew the party was over. The IAM tried it but nobody wanted to give up their peice of the pie. They should have formed some type of transportable seniority so that airline workers would be able to move from carrier to carrier more easily.

Interesting that you want to support featherbedding in Italy, while the AMFA organizers here in Tulsa and many of his claque advocate layoffs, to maintain their one size fits all paychecks, and their buddies at UAL are whinning for extra pay for taxi-tow.

Are you that desperate that you have to continuously make things up in order to debate? Where did I ever say I support "featherbedding"?

Your argument about the NYC transit authority are not based on market economy. I don't see the NYCTA being allowed to shutdown anytime soon. They may privatice, but then you have another ball game entirely.

And with 20% of the market AA was not about to close their doors either. The fact is they acted like a union whereas the TWU acted like an agent of the company, but then again by accepting the $3.1 million they are arent they?

You seem to be concentrating on the fact that AA seems to do better after contracts. Which comes first?

With the TWU, we are always the first with concessions.

The predictable cost for a 5-6 year contract or maybe, the economy is just not that easy to predict.

Most cycles run around three years to six years. The sad fact is that Jim Little negotiated long term contracts over at Eagle and now he has done even worse over here, and we cant get him out within the TWU.

I'll go for the middle ground. It only takes a few passengers per flight to change the profit loss picture. As has been pointed out recently AA's management is supposed to be STUPID, if so then how come they can negotiate these wonderful contracts just before the business turns around?

Well if they are Stupid" then what is the TWU?

If amts are so wonderfully intelligent and prescient about the future, then why is AMFA as an all amt union: a, loosing members at NWA, and at SWA trying to change a successful business plan, i. e. no overhaul?

Isnt the TWU losing members? Lets see, according to the TWU there are 21000 in our class and craft but only 14000 are currently on payroll. That means we have already lost 7000 just in our class and craft. With every retirement the TWU loses another member. Why would you blast SWA mechanics for fighting to bring work in house? As the airline grows the economies of scale make ir more cost effective to do so. This is the same principle that the company uses to keep work in house at AA as stated in the CR Smith letter.

Finally to another post from someone else, the pilots are not smarter, they have the legislative clout of exclusive ownership to their job, and the working conditions. The pilots also have almost all college education, many have military officer's background and are trained and willing to be objective about their situation.

They also have their own union. Now whats your excuse as to why Longshoremen, plumbers, electricians , laborers, school teachers etc all make a lot more than Aircraft mechanics? The fact is that all of these people have unions that are exclusive to their profession. The average TWU member makes just $15 per hour. When we leave that number will drop to around $12/hr. The fact it that this catch any/all union does a lousy job for all is members. In some cases they represent people who make minimum wage, when you subtract dues they end up making less than minimum.

J7915, you seem to have a problem, you have repeatedly made false assumptions without any statement by me to drive them. Maybe because you are so used to the borg-like mandate of the TWU you assume that all other organizations and its members are the same. Well guess what? You are wrong.

Tell us more about the corporate style democracy of the TWU.

 

[Buck]

Danny Martinez - VP Update - May 2004

I’ve been on the road over the last few months meeting with the Line Maintenance Team. I have been encouraged by the willingness of all to continue improving the product produced by Line Maintenance – a safe, dependable airline.

On one of my several visits to the Western region I was able to participate in the FAA Diamond Award presentation ceremony. The Diamond Award is presented to a company for their commitment to training. This award is the culmination of a lot of hard work by the entire M&E team. Congratulations to the division! The recognition is well deserved. In addition to the Diamond award, LAX in particular has done an outstanding job in exceeding their station performance goals. We’re glad to have you back running well.

On my visit to MIA, I had the pleasure of working with the maintenance team to initiate the implementation phase of the portable laptop computers. We had a great meeting. The project is progressing well with direct involvement from the AMTs that have been using the units during the test phase. The word on the portables is spreading, and we have had some high profile saves at the gate as a result of having the most current information right at the AMTs’ fingertips. We are expanding the project by moving on to BOS next. In the meantime, we were able to provide two units to JFK to help cover some gaps at the terminal. I’m counting on the team to continue to develop this very useful tool that is unique to AA.

Speaking of JFK, I had the opportunity to visit on two occasions and was very impressed by the honest feedback provided by the group. There were several go-do items as a result of those meetings, and we are on track getting those accomplished. I wasn’t able to meet with everyone, but I will be back to meet with those I missed. I was also invited to spend a day in the life of the terminal-assigned AMT. I am looking forward to that and will be back early in the summer.

While I was in the northeast, I was able to run over to LGA. It had been a while since my last visit, and it was great to see that LGA continues to provide an outstanding product to our customers. My compliments to Steve and the ground equipment shop.

If visiting our domestic cities wasn’t enough to keep me going, I made a trip to our European stations as well. It was nice to meet some of the people face-to-face who I have been dealing with for so many years over the phone. They do a great job keeping our aircraft flying and providing a competitive product to our international customers. The ham sandwich I had at CDG wasn’t too bad either.

I’m going to take a short breather this month but I will continue with my station visits throughout the summer.

There’s a new recognition program that rolled out this quarter thanks to the collaborative efforts by our employee and management teams. The M&E Outstanding People Award program has recognized it’s first quarter recipients. We had a great response for the kick off of the project, and have recognized some of the best of the M&E Team. Lots of great people with lots of great achievements. Please be sure to check them out at the M&E home page or at http://me.aa.com/people/recipients.asp. Take a minute to submit an outstanding person for next quarter.

There have been some organizational changes within Line Maintenance. John Healey, International Division Managing Director, will assume the additional responsibilities of the Western Division. Russ Newill, ORD Managing Director, will add STL to his responsibility creating a new Central Division. Russ and John will be wrapping up the transition by the end of the month. Unfortunately, there has also been a reduction in the management ranks as a result of this reorganization.

In addition to being competitive, we are making progress on the financial front, and the summer is shaping up to offer us an opportunity to continue with that trend. We are seeing improvement in our overall performance. We were able to attain a dependability level of 3.79 delays plus cancellations per 100 departures last week which is the best performance we have delivered all year! All of our stations are stepping up to the challenge by providing a safe aircraft to the gate with greater efficiency. The Line Maintenance operation is on track, and we don’t expect any major changes through the summer. Congratulations to everyone for their part in achieving our first AIP payout for March. It just proves we can do this when we pull together by working hard, and then we'll all win together.

As we approach this busy time of the year we need to stay focused on providing the best product we can to our customers. The competition won’t let up, but I say they can’t measure up to what we can provide. Stay safe and work smart.

Danny Martinez
Vice President
M&E Line Maintenance