Industrial vs. Craft

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

Why do all TWU zealots have a double standard on every negative industry issue?

Because, to do otherwise would be detrimental to their dues income.

 

[Vortilon]

I work for AA, I just remember the NW GSE guys getting walked out en mass, I don't know why or what steps AMFA took before or after, maybe, just maybe you could dial up some of your AMFA buddies and have them give us the whole story without the attitude.

One of the main reasons that the AMFA membership went on strike at NWA was because management wanted to kick 55% of the membership to the street - most of which were GSE, Facilities, and Automotive. Nice try though.... Jackwagon

 

[whoop whoop]

I'll answer this with another question. Has that process provided positive benefit to all the members that have bought in to it's system of unionism? Keep in mind that at the beginning of 2000 they had approximately 25,000 members and have approximately less than 90% of that number now with most losing their jobs to outsourcing. Yes, no there may be 25% or more jobs lost due to outsourcing in BK but then that still nowhere near adds up to the 90% lost with AMFA represented members.

The structure you outlined has not delivered on its promises, unless you are in the privileged 10%.

FYI - AMFA does not just represent A&Ps. They represent everyone in the M&R class and craft which includes, aircraft cleaners, janitors, painters, parts washers, facilities mechanics, and automotive mechanics per the NMB.

LOL, you people kill me. Do you not have another book to quote from? All of you give the SAME standard textbook answer, which never answered anything I asked.

I don't want to hear why you do not want AMFA, why is it so hard for you to tell me why you like what you like???

I gave ten examples of why I feel AMFA would be better without any of why I dislike industrial unions, why can't you do the same?????

 

[whoop whoop]

I thought the original post about all the bullet points of AMFA's good side were solid points.

I also thought that Overspeeds question was a fair one that I would like to see an answer to.

Why don't we just stay focused on the original intent of the thread and stay on point and we may get somewhere.

AMFA may well be a viable alternative , maybe not , but there are some things that need to be explained.

I would like someone from AMFA to explain why GSE mechanics at NW were walked out like orphans.

The SWA guys really like AMFA so there is hope, I'm willing to listen to explanations that speak to mistakes that were made in the past and what they have done and what could be done to keep from repeating them in the future.

If a representation vote is in our future, we need to learn as much as we can.

There is nothing that needs to be explained at this moment. The topic of this thread is why do people favor industrial unions over craft unions, THATS IT!!!! No need to divert this topic.

We still have 0.0 answers why.

 

[TWU informer]

I gave my answer:

Here
http://vimeo.com/44211395

 

[Buck]

What TWA guys got walked out due to the TWU? MCIE was closed due to a shrinking fleet and STL was downsized because AA did not need the hub anymore.

Boy Overspeed you walked into that one.

 

[TWU informer]

I gave my answer:

Here

bump

 

[Overspeed]

I understand, but you and all the other TWU cronies blamed AMFA for years now, when the same thing happened at other carriers.

So which is it? Fleet reductions and the cycles of this industry or does the Union on the property take the blame for all instances of negative environment?

You can't have it both ways, which do you choose?

When Northwest and United shut down maintenance bases, there were daily TWU newletters blaming AMFA, but those shutterings were no different than MCIE and now AFW. I just figure since AMFA was blamed for years on end, that the TWU must be to blame now.

Why do all TWU zealots have a double standard on every negative industry issue?

That's very untrue.

MCIE was closed due to fleet reductions, not outsourcing. AFW is being closed due to outsourcing. The TWU had a deal that was voted down in July 2010 that would keep AFW open and no increase in outsourcing. The members voted it down because they thought they could get better. Many "leaders" stated that over the advice of the Int'l.

AS was not in BK and there was no fleet reduction yet AMFA did not keep the OAK base from being closed. At NWA AMFA advised its members to go on strike and they lost all but two stations as a result. WN pressed AMFA to outsource more work to El Salvador and they didn't put up much of fight. Why did they not press for those jobs to moved in-house? When UA outsourced more work to Korea and China AMFA did not fight that either.

MCIE and AFW the same as AMFA's missteps? Not even close.

 

[TWU informer]

That's very untrue.

MCIE was closed due to fleet reductions, not outsourcing. AFW is being closed due to outsourcing. The TWU had a deal that was voted down in July 2010 that would keep AFW open and no increase in outsourcing. The members voted it down because they thought they could get better. Many "leaders" stated that over the advice of the Int'l.

AS was not in BK and there was no fleet reduction yet AMFA did not keep the OAK base from being closed. At NWA AMFA advised its members to go on strike and they lost all but two stations as a result. WN pressed AMFA to outsource more work to El Salvador and they didn't put up much of fight. Why did they not press for those jobs to moved in-house? When UA outsourced more work to Korea and China AMFA did not fight that either.

MCIE and AFW the same as AMFA's missteps? Not even close.

So with the TWU, it is the member's fault because the majority were opposed to more TWU Concessions....LOL

And with AMFA, it is the Union's fault.....

...Are you really so cult brainwashed you cannot see your hypocritic nature?

By the way, another line is starting at Southwest, they are hiring, and you are still bashing AMFA while the TWU has lost two maintenance bases and job losses will soon exceed 10,000 half of which were lost prior to BK filing in November. Keep bashing and we will keep signing cards. You and the TWU call fighting for jobs, having a petition on-line to sign....how is that "fight" which is really defined as "beg" working for you now?

 

[Overspeed]

So with the TWU, it is the member's fault because the majority were opposed to more TWU Concessions....LOL

And with AMFA, it is the Union's fault.....

...Are you really so cult brainwashed you cannot see your hypocritic nature?

By the way, another line is starting at Southwest, they are hiring, and you are still bashing AMFA while the TWU has lost two maintenance bases and job losses will soon exceed 10,000 half of which were lost prior to BK filing in November. Keep bashing and we will keep signing cards. You and the TWU call fighting for jobs, having a petition on-line to sign....how is that "fight" which is really defined as "beg" working for you now?

No not the members fault. The members and the officers are the union. They negotiated and brought it back. Pike stamped vote no on it and the other saber rattlers said a better deal was coming and BK was a threat. Waiting for them to deliver.

Yep, added one line when they got over 620+ aircraft. WOO HOO! That's awesome. Big win there! The most profitable airline in the industry and AMFA negotiated to get one more line of airframe. WOW! In exchange for sending four lines to El Salvador.

The TWU did not lose MCIE, now AFW is another issue. I have no idea how any union would keep that work in-house in BK.

And AMFA got booted from UA and didn't even try to organize when NWA was bought by DL. They knew they had a bad track record.

 

[Buck]

And the TWU track record?

The multiple scales of regressive compensation at every contact. The inability of the TWU to even negotiate in a timely manner. The TWU takes pride in keeping the number of employees up no matter what the competition is doing. Jobs for dollars!

 

[TWU informer]

And AMFA got booted from UA and didn't even try to organize when NWA was bought by DL. They knew they had a bad track record.

Why is it you always reference AMFA as "THEY", who is "THEY"?

Everytime there has been an organizing drive at AA it has been "WE" as in TWU members fed up with the docile union.

You brag about keeping jobs in house. Of course in 1995 the TWU allowed for a $9.00 wage for 25% of the maintenance base which brought in relatives of other employees without skill, without experiences, and before this ignorant move, going into management in Tulsa had been an undesireable move for years, but with such a low entry pay, these same non-skill and non-experienced relatives have now infiltrated our management team even beyond the second level. It was desireable for someone making the paltry wage of $9 per hour to go into management and they flooded the management ranks in Tulsa and have for 16+ years now.

Most of us in Tulsa know that the management is lacking the leadership needed to survive and/or succeed, and you can place that blame squarely on the TWU and the SRP program for that too while you are bragging about TWU happenings. What we have in management now in Tulsa is mostly non-skilled and non-experienced relatives that moved up and do not have a clue how to accomplish even the simple basic tasks required to succeed.

TWU Concessions for job has had a very negative impact on every aspect of our careers in more ways than one.

Any Union could bring in or keep work using a $9 per hour entry rate, but most Unions other than the TWU would consider this not only wrong but a failure. But not the Dues Loving TWU, as long as the dues paying member exist, there is no wage too low! How did that BS work out for us all in the long run?

 

[Overspeed]

Why is it you always reference AMFA as "THEY", who is "THEY"?

Everytime there has been an organizing drive at AA it has been "WE" as in TWU members fed up with the docile union.

You brag about keeping jobs in house. Of course in 1995 the TWU allowed for a $9.00 wage for 25% of the maintenance base which brought in relatives of other employees without skill, without experiences, and before this ignorant move, going into management in Tulsa had been an undesireable move for years, but with such a low entry pay, these same non-skill and non-experienced relatives have now infiltrated our management team even beyond the second level. It was desireable for someone making the paltry wage of $9 per hour to go into management and they flooded the management ranks in Tulsa and have for 16+ years now.

Most of us in Tulsa know that the management is lacking the leadership needed to survive and/or succeed, and you can place that blame squarely on the TWU and the SRP program for that too while you are bragging about TWU happenings. What we have in management now in Tulsa is mostly non-skilled and non-experienced relatives that moved up and do not have a clue how to accomplish even the simple basic tasks required to succeed.

TWU Concessions for job has had a very negative impact on every aspect of our careers in more ways than one.

Any Union could bring in or keep work using a $9 per hour entry rate, but most Unions other than the TWU would consider this not only wrong but a failure. But not the Dues Loving TWU, as long as the dues paying member exist, there is no wage too low! How did that BS work out for us all in the long run?

So you advocate the strategy of outsourcing the work instead of keeping it in-house? Because that's what the other airlines did. With the SRP classification how many bumped within the company versus getting laid off?

Outsourcing has not been a negative impact on your career? Ask all those people that worked overhaul at CO, UA, DL, AS, and US that don't work their now. RIF'd and had your job outsourced. That's a negative. Especially if you are late in your career.

It wasn't about the dues, it was about fighting back against outsourcing and that other airlines like CO, UA, and DL had already embraced the unlicensed mechanic helper concept.

Management is a management problem. Not the TWU but nice try. Keep spinning Dave. You sound desperate.

 

[Birdman]

Who's so desperate that they will seek the help of a alternate industrial union pretending to be a craft union, which they oppose, by soliciting M&R only and asking members to refrain from signing AMFA cards? Foremost, why have they done so unopposed by the incumbent unions minions on these bb's?

 

[swamt]

Need to clairify something here. Some out here are claiming that SWA has added to their outsoursing numbers. This is not true. The Elsolvador maint was removed from another FBO. This is not added outsourcing, if it wasn't Elsolvador it would have been somewhere else. We are still at the same percentage as we always been. When our fleet grows as fast as it does, SWA still maintains the same percentile. We are at 550 A/C not 620. Once the merger is done with AT we will be at approx 682. And yes this is even with the 717's going over to Delta, as SWA will be replacing each of those with 700's, 800's as well as the new MAX coming in 2017. Right now SWA is growing and expanding. We do alot more with alot less, this is the main reason we are paid what we are paid. This came out of Sokol's mouth himself during nego's. Our 4th line of maint is directly due to the merger with AT, AMFA saw this coming so they put verbage in the contract tied to the number of A/C we have. Once we hit 621 SWA will add another line of heavy maint in Dallas. Due to this language, SWA is currently hiring 5 mechs every month until they reach the number required, thru July 2013 when the 4th line will begin. Alot of you out here don't realize how much work AMFA has brought back in house. Yes SWA does farm alot out (approx 70%-75%). It's been like this for well over 20 years, we run lean and mean, and have the oppertunity to work any overtime we wish. We know this ahead of time and everyone seems to like it this way. Why change anything when 98% of the group is content?
You all watch, I can see it now; SWA will ask for more lines of maint to add to Elsolvador, I say ask because they have to not only get AMFA's approval to continue maint overseas, but if they want to add to it. I will say I was a "NO" vote on the last one. But this is how SWA will get more lines of maint. However, they better be willing to throw out larger wage increases in order to get what they want.