Industrial vs. Craft

[Rogallo]

You sound desperate.

Who sounds desperate?

 

[Overspeed]

Need to clairify something here. Some out here are claiming that SWA has added to their outsoursing numbers. This is not true. The Elsolvador maint was removed from another FBO. This is not added outsourcing, if it wasn't Elsolvador it would have been somewhere else. We are still at the same percentage as we always been. When our fleet grows as fast as it does, SWA still maintains the same percentile. We are at 550 A/C not 620. Once the merger is done with AT we will be at approx 682. And yes this is even with the 717's going over to Delta, as SWA will be replacing each of those with 700's, 800's as well as the new MAX coming in 2017. Right now SWA is growing and expanding. We do alot more with alot less, this is the main reason we are paid what we are paid. This came out of Sokol's mouth himself during nego's. Our 4th line of maint is directly due to the merger with AT, AMFA saw this coming so they put verbage in the contract tied to the number of A/C we have. Once we hit 621 SWA will add another line of heavy maint in Dallas. Due to this language, SWA is currently hiring 5 mechs every month until they reach the number required, thru July 2013 when the 4th line will begin. Alot of you out here don't realize how much work AMFA has brought back in house. Yes SWA does farm alot out (approx 70%-75%). It's been like this for well over 20 years, we run lean and mean, and have the oppertunity to work any overtime we wish. We know this ahead of time and everyone seems to like it this way. Why change anything when 98% of the group is content?
You all watch, I can see it now; SWA will ask for more lines of maint to add to Elsolvador, I say ask because they have to not only get AMFA's approval to continue maint overseas, but if they want to add to it. I will say I was a "NO" vote on the last one. But this is how SWA will get more lines of maint. However, they better be willing to throw out larger wage increases in order to get what they want.

So "lean and mean" translates to 70% to 75% outsourcing. I guess that's okay if you never did the work in-house in the first place. So if AA needs to get "lean and mean" by WN standards we need to outsource all but 4 lines of overhaul, all engine overhaul, and all component overhaul to get $42/hourly? I just want to be clear. You haven't even touched on all the line stations that are staffed with less than a half dozen people.

Thank you for confirming what many of us have stated for some time. The higher wages at WN are a direct result of outsourcing. Maybe you should talk to Owens, Ruiz, Rojas, Pike, and Petersen because they continue to state otherwise.

 

[Mr Red]

So "lean and mean" translates to 70% to 75% outsourcing. I guess that's okay if you never did the work in-house in the first place. So if AA needs to get "lean and mean" by WN standards we need to outsource all but 4 lines of overhaul, all engine overhaul, and all component overhaul to get $42/hourly? I just want to be clear. You haven't even touched on all the line stations that are staffed with less than a half dozen people.

Thank you for confirming what many of us have stated for some time. The higher wages at WN are a direct result of outsourcing. Maybe you should talk to Owens, Ruiz, Rojas, Pike, and Petersen because they continue to state otherwise.

Just getting rid of AA Deadbeats would equate to about 50.00 Hr for the people that get with the program

 

[AA89]

<p>

So "lean and mean" translates to 70% to 75% outsourcing. I guess that's okay if you never did the work in-house in the first place. So if AA needs to get "lean and mean" by WN standards we need to outsource all but 4 lines of overhaul, all engine overhaul, and all component overhaul to get $42/hourly? I just want to be clear. You haven't even touched on all the line stations that are staffed with less than a half dozen people.

Thank you for confirming what many of us have stated for some time. The higher wages at WN are a direct result of outsourcing. Maybe you should talk to Owens, Ruiz, Rojas, Pike, and Petersen because they continue to state otherwise.

Thanks to BK laws, maintenance costs will be cut or have been cut at all airlines. Obviously you prefer wage and benefit cuts to headcount cuts. Are you saying that a seat mechanic deserves the same pay as a line mechanic? How would you determine the wages of a particular skill if you don't compare it to the rest of the industry? Do you feel that the line mechanics should make $5 an hour less than the other legacy carriers? Should the TWU be more concerned about this or keeping seats and coffee maker mechanics on the payroll? TAESL by the way makes money and if the problems in both management and labor were fixed it would be a gold mine.

 

[TWU informer]

bump

 

[TWU informer]

TEAMSTERS - JUST ANOTHER INDUSTRIAL UNION

So the Teamsters say they want to build a Mechanics Union, well then would someone explain- why in 2010 after years and years of just representing the Mechanics at Continental did Teamsters go out and organize the Ramp Workers

http://www.amfa-aa.c...bt_nmb_2010.pdf

Then after getting the Mechanics at UAL they fought the IAM over those very same Rampers in a attempt to represent the Ramp at UAL

http://www.amfa-aa.c...bt_nmb_2011.pdf

And after losing that vote, Teamsters filed a complaint with the NMB in a attempt to re-run the election to gain the Ramp

http://www.amfa-aa.c...bt_nmb_2012.pdf

There is something funny going on here? Teamsters say/claim one thing, but do another. Does that sound familar?
Question: How long before the Teamster's will try and organize the Ramp and/or Stores at AA?

There is only ONE union REQUIRED by it's constitution to represent only the Mechanics class and craft and it is NOT the teamsters it's AMFA!

 

[Overspeed]

There is only ONE union REQUIRED by it's constitution to represent only the Mechanics class and craft and it is NOT the teamsters it's AMFA!

Now that's a big lie. Class and craft is determined by the NMB. That means AMFA must represent facilities, automotive, aircraft cleaners, parts washers, janitors, and painters. Why does AMFA represent the appearance technicians at WN? Why did AMFA attempt to go after the stock clerks at WN? Could it be they needed more dues revenue?

 

[swamt]

So "lean and mean" translates to 70% to 75% outsourcing. I guess that's okay if you never did the work in-house in the first place. So if AA needs to get "lean and mean" by WN standards we need to outsource all but 4 lines of overhaul, all engine overhaul, and all component overhaul to get $42/hourly? I just want to be clear. You haven't even touched on all the line stations that are staffed with less than a half dozen people.

Thank you for confirming what many of us have stated for some time. The higher wages at WN are a direct result of outsourcing. Maybe you should talk to Owens, Ruiz, Rojas, Pike, and Petersen because they continue to state otherwise.

You are incorrect!! I never said our wages are directly tied to outsoursing. Re-read my post. I said we are paid what we are paid due to running lean and mean. Our mech to a/c ratio is the lowest out there. Also like I said in my previous post, SWA has always been at 70 -75% on outsoursing, even prior to the SWA mechs getting paid what they are paid. Remember when we were in the low end of the pay scale while everyone else was taking off, well guess what? SWA was at same 75% they are at today. So simple math will tell you, Mechs pay at SWA is not and never will be tied directly to the percentile of outsoursing SWA does. Most everyone out here already knows this. I don't need to touch on the line stations. We all know we have to do more with less, hence the pay we get.
Nice try to spin my post in another direction.

You will also see more maint brought into house, due to the AMFA contract language, when AT gets settled into SWA. The teamsters over there didn't even get their members to do "C" checks. We have been hearing of ATL or MCO and a possibility of both doing "C" checks, also heard MDW hat thrown in there too. Yes, SWA does farm out alot, not saying it's a good thing, just saying they have been doing it this way since the 80's.

We have a new target for our up coming negos thanx to the dispatchers ruling. I'm sure if we were to get UPS range of pay, SWA will be looking for something in return. Like asking to relocate more lines of maint from current US FBO's out to Elsalvador. SWA is not stupid, they know that alls they got to do is throw some money to the mechs and they usually get what they want. That's what the majority at SWA see is the money, they never read any further than that, and this is sad. Although adding extra lines to Elsavador may be alot harder to sell, but if the mechs were offered equal or greater than UPS rates, SWA will get what they want. Trust me, the UPS rates are not impossible, with the Elsavador maint savings more than paid for our wages, as they will yet again. The dispatchers mediated ruling has now set a president to compare with UPS, we may have to tack on another year or two, but it is not unattainable...

 

[swamt]

Now that's a big lie. Class and craft is determined by the NMB. That means AMFA must represent facilities, automotive, aircraft cleaners, parts washers, janitors, and painters. Why does AMFA represent the appearance technicians at WN? Why did AMFA attempt to go after the stock clerks at WN? Could it be they needed more dues revenue?

I will say up front that I don't know for fact, but I have never heard of AMFA trying to represent the stock clerks at WN.

 

[Overspeed]

You are incorrect!! I never said our wages are directly tied to outsoursing. Re-read my post. I said we are paid what we are paid due to running lean and mean. Our mech to a/c ratio is the lowest out there. Also like I said in my previous post, SWA has always been at 70 -75% on outsoursing, even prior to the SWA mechs getting paid what they are paid. Remember when we were in the low end of the pay scale while everyone else was taking off, well guess what? SWA was at same 75% they are at today. So simple math will tell you, Mechs pay at SWA is not and never will be tied directly to the percentile of outsoursing SWA does. Most everyone out here already knows this. I don't need to touch on the line stations. We all know we have to do more with less, hence the pay we get.
Nice try to spin my post in another direction.

You will also see more maint brought into house, due to the AMFA contract language, when AT gets settled into SWA. The teamsters over there didn't even get their members to do "C" checks. We have been hearing of ATL or MCO and a possibility of both doing "C" checks, also heard MDW hat thrown in there too. Yes, SWA does farm out alot, not saying it's a good thing, just saying they have been doing it this way since the 80's.

We have a new target for our up coming negos thanx to the dispatchers ruling. I'm sure if we were to get UPS range of pay, SWA will be looking for something in return. Like asking to relocate more lines of maint from current US FBO's out to Elsalvador. SWA is not stupid, they know that alls they got to do is throw some money to the mechs and they usually get what they want. That's what the majority at SWA see is the money, they never read any further than that, and this is sad. Although adding extra lines to Elsavador may be alot harder to sell, but if the mechs were offered equal or greater than UPS rates, SWA will get what they want. Trust me, the UPS rates are not impossible, with the Elsavador maint savings more than paid for our wages, as they will yet again. The dispatchers mediated ruling has now set a president to compare with UPS, we may have to tack on another year or two, but it is not unattainable...

Then if outsourcing is not tied to your wages in-house why didn't AMFA successfully get the "lean and mean" philosophy to bring in even more overhaul in-house? UPS outsources like mad as well and that is why they can pay such few people high wages.

As far as WN paying low wages 10 to 15 years ago, they did not have the revenue base to pay those kind of wages nor did IBT have the leverage to drive those wages higher. No regional paid top wages and never has, never will. Once WN reached the major player level they paid more because they did not want to slow down the growth with labor unrest. Now what? Yes WN bought AirTran but now what? Organic growth has dried up domestically and even your CEO has stated that internal productivity improvements will no longer offset the labor cost disparity. Kelly even stated during the MRO show that WN can longer sustain 4% to 5% increases annually in maintenance costs. Now what?

 

[enough already]

Then if outsourcing is not tied to your wages in-house why didn't AMFA successfully get the "lean and mean" philosophy to bring in even more overhaul in-house? UPS outsources like mad as well and that is why they can pay such few people high wages.

Just to be clear then, you are in support of concessions for jobs?

 

[Birdman]

Just to be clear then, you are in support of concessions for jobs?

He's an industrial unionist and it's part of their philosophy. Even though WN has never had a layoff they lament that so many more could have been employed if the greedy had just agreed to work for less.

 

[Overspeed]

Just to be clear then, you are in support of concessions for jobs?

Nope. Don't support outsourcing as "lean and mean".

 

[Overspeed]

He's an industrial unionist and it's part of their philosophy. Even though WN has never had a layoff they lament that so many more could have been employed if the greedy had just agreed to work for less.

I never said anyone was greedy. I said, why didn't AMFA fight to bring those jobs that got outsourced in. If WN is the most profitable airline and the AMTs they have are so good, where was the AMFA fight to bring more $42/hour jobs in-house? There wasn't. It was a roll over. They could have said we will take the raise and we want two or three more lines in-house. Did they? No.

This is not a discussion of greed. The topic is craft better than industrial and if WN is the example of craft unionism being superior then they failed. They have done nothing but extend the IBT contract twice and gave in to more concessions on outsourcing. Epic fail.

 

[enough already]

This is not a discussion of greed. The topic is craft better than industrial and if WN is the example of craft unionism being superior then they failed. They have done nothing but extend the IBT contract twice and gave in to more concessions on outsourcing. Epic fail.

So then are you saying their current contact sucks, but that it was negotiated by the IBT?