I''ve changed my mind, voting YES
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
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On 4/5/2003 10:51:19 PM AA80Driver wrote:
FWIW, I''m changing from a No vote to Yes vote after spending an hour listening to bankruptcy council at the DFW Road Show. The reason is not because I have anything good to about our current TA...I don''t--it sucks. It is because it is better than anything that will come out of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a crap sandwich for everyone: Labor, Company, Creditors & Stockholders. I originally thought that BK would be equitable because it would force mgmt and the creditor to get a bigger haircrut. They probably would too, but at labors expense and the company also gets hit by bookaway, COD terms, BK fees, and onerous DIP restrictions. In short, there aren''t too many success stories involving airlines and BK and our attorney''s think it will be disasterous.
At some point you''ve got to come to the realization that you''ve run out of bullets. Fighting Lorenzo''s attorney''s (yes, that''s who AMR has hired) in the Southern District of NY is a battle that we can''t win. Let''s regroup, get the airline back on it''s feet and pursue our pound of flesh when they''re making money in three years.
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Agreed, I''M In.On 4/5/2003 10:51:19 PM AA80Driver wrote:
FWIW, I''m changing from a No vote to Yes vote after spending an hour listening to bankruptcy council at the DFW Road Show. The reason is not because I have anything good to about our current TA...I don''t--it sucks. It is because it is better than anything that will come out of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a crap sandwich for everyone: Labor, Company, Creditors & Stockholders. I originally thought that BK would be equitable because it would force mgmt and the creditor to get a bigger haircrut. They probably would too, but at labors expense and the company also gets hit by bookaway, COD terms, BK fees, and onerous DIP restrictions. In short, there aren''t too many success stories involving airlines and BK and our attorney''s think it will be disasterous.
At some point you''ve got to come to the realization that you''ve run out of bullets. Fighting Lorenzo''s attorney''s (yes, that''s who AMR has hired) in the Southern District of NY is a battle that we can''t win. Let''s regroup, get the airline back on it''s feet and pursue our pound of flesh when they''re making money in three years.
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Bags,
I appreciate what you said. Thanks.Things will turn around and will be better than they are now. Good luck to all that have been or will be furloughed and may it be as short as possible!
Also, a big thanks to the men and women in Iraq that are really making the sacrifice on our behalf. May the war be over soon.
I appreciate what you said. Thanks.Things will turn around and will be better than they are now. Good luck to all that have been or will be furloughed and may it be as short as possible!
Also, a big thanks to the men and women in Iraq that are really making the sacrifice on our behalf. May the war be over soon.
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On 4/5/2003 7:16:35 PM RV4 wrote:
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On 4/5/2003 7:16:35 PM RV4 wrote:
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On 4/5/2003 7
03 PM rampguy wrote:
Now you come over to this topic with more bullying. He stated his position but rather than accept his word, you inject your own translation. How about this Dave, you vote no and let others decide for themselves. Kinda simple isn''t it?
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And you are WHO?On 4/5/2003 7
03 PM rampguy wrote:Now you come over to this topic with more bullying. He stated his position but rather than accept his word, you inject your own translation. How about this Dave, you vote no and let others decide for themselves. Kinda simple isn''t it?
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Just someone that gets tired of your bullying tactics as if those who disagree can''t think for themselves. You have accused everyone that says they will vote yes as caving in to fear. You are the one that called everyone cowards. Bags showed a little courage standing up and you try to say he caved in to union fear. Now, bags doesn''t need me to stick up for him as he can do well for himself. Why don''t you just stick to facts and not ink up the water with this union fear crap.
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On 4/5/2003 9:16:34 PM bagsmasher wrote:
No RV4, you are wrong. I do not want to lead all wages of the industry backward.
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[url="http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030406/airlines_bankruptcy_2.html"]http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030406/airlines_bankruptcy_2.html[/URL]On 4/5/2003 9:16:34 PM bagsmasher wrote:
No RV4, you are wrong. I do not want to lead all wages of the industry backward.
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"The American deal certainly makes it much more likely that unions at other carriers will be more amenable to concessions," said James Corridore, an airline analyst at Standard & Poor's. "They see the writing on the wall, they see the industry losing tons of money and now see their major competitor becoming much more healthy, with costs lower than theirs."
My point about FEAR is not directed towards bagsmasher only.
This T/A is not a "competitive wage structure", it is a new industry standard that others will have to follow. How many times does AA have to "LEAD THE INDUSTRY" backwards before everyone can see the smoke-n-mirror FEAR based negotiations for what they are?
Disagreement is key to America and our freedom. But stupidity and ignorance is serving nobody but the greedy corporate bank account.
1AA
Veteran
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On 4/5/2003 1116 PM texflyer wrote:
For what its worth,AA got TWA for a steal,$440 mill,if even that much. So blaming TWA is just being too convenient. The truth of the matter is that the airline enviremont has changed to a lowfare one. I feel sorry for many of you guys,because when I was in high school I had dreams of working in the airline industry. Never would I thought in ten years it would be upside down the way it is now.
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WRONG!! It was purchased for over 600 million and all the additional funding that AA had to pick up. Pension funding, aircraft fees, back payments owed and let us not forget all the court and lawyer fees that AA had to endure at every turn in the road. AA was being sued for this and that for about a year until we finally overcame all the hurdles. AA won but at a big price. Oh, let us not forget that TWA is still operated as a separate company, that in itself is costing AA plenty. Does anybody know what the final price tag was on the TWA purchase? I read some where is was over $$$ ONE BILLION $$$. Add that to the One billion we have right now and we would be in much better shape. Then you can add the selling off of the always profitable SABRE. What a mistake that was. How about all the money spent on trying to acquire Canadian Airlines? Another financial failure. So yes TWA was and still is a financial burden. Unfortunetly we are stuck with this mess and have to pay for it with our livlihoods.On 4/5/2003 11
16 PM texflyer wrote: For what its worth,AA got TWA for a steal,$440 mill,if even that much. So blaming TWA is just being too convenient. The truth of the matter is that the airline enviremont has changed to a lowfare one. I feel sorry for many of you guys,because when I was in high school I had dreams of working in the airline industry. Never would I thought in ten years it would be upside down the way it is now.
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MY VOTE IS NO!!!! Or better yet HELL NO!!!
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On 4/6/2003 3
19 AM rampguy wrote:
Just someone that gets tired of your bullying tactics as if those who disagree can''t think for themselves. You have accused everyone that says they will vote yes as caving in to fear. You are the one that called everyone cowards.
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The TRUTH seems to always bother you the most, doesn''t it?On 4/6/2003 3
19 AM rampguy wrote:Just someone that gets tired of your bullying tactics as if those who disagree can''t think for themselves. You have accused everyone that says they will vote yes as caving in to fear. You are the one that called everyone cowards.
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On 4/5/2003 10:51:19 PM AA80Driver wrote:
FWIW, I'm changing from a No vote to Yes vote after spending an hour listening to bankruptcy council at the DFW Road Show. The reason is not because I have anything good to about our current TA...I don't--it sucks. It is because it is better than anything that will come out of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a crap sandwich for everyone: Labor, Company, Creditors & Stockholders. I originally thought that BK would be equitable because it would force mgmt and the creditor to get a bigger haircrut. They probably would too, but at labors expense and the company also gets hit by bookaway, COD terms, BK fees, and onerous DIP restrictions. In short, there aren't too many success stories involving airlines and BK and our attorney's think it will be disasterous.
At some point you've got to come to the realization that you've run out of bullets. Fighting Lorenzo's attorney's (yes, that's who AMR has hired) in the Southern District of NY is a battle that we can't win. Let's regroup, get the airline back on it's feet and pursue our pound of flesh when they're making money in three years.
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On 4/5/2003 10:51:19 PM AA80Driver wrote:
FWIW, I'm changing from a No vote to Yes vote after spending an hour listening to bankruptcy council at the DFW Road Show. The reason is not because I have anything good to about our current TA...I don't--it sucks. It is because it is better than anything that will come out of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a crap sandwich for everyone: Labor, Company, Creditors & Stockholders. I originally thought that BK would be equitable because it would force mgmt and the creditor to get a bigger haircrut. They probably would too, but at labors expense and the company also gets hit by bookaway, COD terms, BK fees, and onerous DIP restrictions. In short, there aren't too many success stories involving airlines and BK and our attorney's think it will be disasterous.
At some point you've got to come to the realization that you've run out of bullets. Fighting Lorenzo's attorney's (yes, that's who AMR has hired) in the Southern District of NY is a battle that we can't win. Let's regroup, get the airline back on it's feet and pursue our pound of flesh when they're making money in three years.
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I dont know what the Pilots are getting but mechanics cant get our "pound of flesh" for six years. Maybe the deal makes sense for pilots and baggage handlers, it depends on what your annual salary comes out to and what you could make on the outside. But for aircraft mechanics this thing is unacceptable. We have never made a "premium" for being in this industry, in other words comparable jobs that require similar skills pay just as much or more on the outside. How many other industries other than Aviation solicit pilots out of flight school? I dont know, maybe loads.Loads of industries solicit A&Ps out of school by telling them "why go to the airlines, we pay more and you work normal hours with weekends and holidays off". We have options. It makes more sense for us to say NO. I've invested 22 years into this career and I'd rather not leave but I'm not going to make my family suffer so our executives can get rich. I will VOTE NO because by the end of this contract I will be earning in todays dollars $43,000/ year. I cant afford to buy a farm out in the sticks of Pennsylvania, I have to commute 5 days a week to work, every week. THat means I have to live in a high cost area where the average price of an 1800 sq ft home on a 60X100 lot costs around $350,000, plus another $7000 in Taxes. Do the math, if you can come up with a $50K down payment that means a $300k mortgage@6% (if you are lucky)=1798.66 plus 583.33=$2381.99/month payment. Per year that comes out to over $28000. Now some of you smart guys would say "move" but does that solve the problem? As long as AA has operations out of NY they have to have workers there. As long as those workers are providing a service of value is it unreasonable for them to expect a reasonable quality of life?
This contract would put an unbearable burden for too far in the future for me to accept. I can not control what the company does and all this foolishness of trusting the company will lead to a complaining miserable workforce years into the future. Did the pilots forget RENO? Did the F/As forget the strike? Did the baggage handlers forget the 95 debacle? Well us mechanics did not forget. We did not forget how the company told us "see us in 2001". We did not forget the "Me too" clause. We did not forget the "early out" that was not there. We did not forget "system attrition". At the time our Union was telling us that those were all good decisions. Afterwards they blamed the "Presidents Council" They already started blaming them again. Why should we trust their judgement now? So in two years they can do like they have done in the past and say"hey, you guys voted for it". The company is promising nothing. They have no plan opther than to cut wages. So they cut them, then the other guy cuts them, then they threaten us again with BK and cut some more, when does it end? For me it ends now. As I said I've invested 22 years in this industry and I've only made a decent paycheck for the last two. I quit the third job. I'm not going to vote myself back into that. Pilots will still have six figure incomes to look forward to, Flight Attendants will still have their deal, baggage handlers will still be making more than similar workers on the outside but my earnings will slide way below what I find as acceptable.If you are so determined to "save the Airline" then be prepared to come up with my $20,000, because I'm not giving it. This Bull about all or none is just another ploy by the company. Its amazing how stupid people can be when they get scared. "Live to fight another day" really means "better to live as a slave than fight it". If you dont fight now, when will that day ever come, in 2009? How old will you be then? Then it will be, "oh as long as they dont touch my retirement", "I'm too old now, I dont want to have to start over again". You will spend your entire life running away from one fight after another.Do you think the company will stop here? Along the way you will have abandoned any chance to achieve what you set out for when you decided to make this your career. Out of bullets? Check that chamber. We still git plenty of bullets, hell where else could they be? We have not even fired one off yet. Lorenzos lawyer? Dig deal, EAL ended in a draw. Is that what the creditors want-a WAR? See their assetts plummet in value? I dont think so. They are taking a gamble that they can use fear to sucker us into huge long term concessions, and why not, isnt that what the market is all about-Risk for greater rewards? What do they have to lose by making all these threats? THey can always change their minds. "It absolutely HAS to be six years" Well if it looks like that will get it rejected, that will change. "Er ah, umpfh, umphf, we were successful at convincing our creditors to lower the demand to five years but that is the absolute minimum!" The fact is the creditors could care less about our work rules, holiday pay, overtime, vacation, longevity pay,or even the length of our contract. All they care about is how likely are they going to get their money back and if they dont what assetts could they attach.But if AA says I need you to take this position so I can get these contract through they will oblige. As far I know, these are not the government guaranteed loans. These are regular loans. So basically I'm being expected to vote away $20,000 not to save my job, but to save Carty and the rest of the management team that put us in this positions job. The fact is this is a battle we can win. Thats why the airlines are still financing CESTA despite the fact that we are being told to give paycuts. Dont you find it at least a little bit bitter to think that some of your concession is going to finance legislation that will prevent you from having any chance of getting any of this back? What workgroup do you think is going to get hit the hardest from this? I can tell you right now -The PILOTS. You guys are going to get creamed. Mechanics wont get hit as hard as you because we will simply leave.We can find jobs that will pay the eqivilent of $43,000 per year pretty easy. When S-1327 goes through, financed with your pay cuts, you will see top pay for a pilot end up at best double that of a mechanic, in other words around $86000 in todays money. Lets face it, even at $86,000 there will still be plenty of pilots willing to do it. Look at the wide range of pilots salaries. Mechanics salaries range around 100%. In other words the cheapest mechanic you will find makes half of what the top paid mechanic would make. Pilots however range from $18,000 per year to $300,000, a range of 1600%. Essentially they do the same job. The pay goes up because of seniority. How much harder is it to fly a 777 than an RJ? I dont really know but from Taxiing them I would say that it makes very little difference. Lets face it, there is a lot of sky up there and the size difference up there means little. The responsibilty of 300 people vs 40 really cant be counted for a pilot because he is the first to go. I would say that the variance is less than between driving a car and a tractor trailer. Does it really warrant a 1600% difference? When S-1327 goes through, again, financed with your concesions, you can kiss any chance of that coveted 777 paycheck goodbye.
While S-1327 will kill our standard of living it will not hurt the "Unions". Most of the top union officials have no intentions on ever hitting the floor again as a worker. Many are appointed so they dont have to worry about not being reelected. When S-1327 goes through the Union will simply be a means of enforcing seniority rules and "just cause" . For ground workers who belong to unions like the TWU, IAM Teamsters and CWA, the airlines have always been a profitable sideline. Now it will be even easier, binding arbitration, dont even have to waste money on votes. It will be easy money for them. Have the locals handle all the discipline cases and blame the piss poor contracts on the government "its not our fault guys, we are fighting for you" Like they are now.
Bob,
I agree with most of what you've posted and I think we can all come to the same conclusion on the situation. This TA and the situation we're in sucks. There's no other way to put it. However, what I'm trying to point out is that the alternative in BK will be worse. Look at what is happening to our bretheren at UAL and U.
I want to defend my profession, but we've got no options right now that will produce a better result than ratifying this TA. And yes, these agreements all expire on the same date, at the same time in 6 years. How's that for leverage...all your labor contract being emendable at the same time.
Also, we have no leverage when the company is in this financial condition. The time to fix this is when they're making money...then we'll have some leverage. Right now about all we can accomplish be voting no is throwing away everything in the hopes that Carty might be removed in BK. And you know what, if he is, he'll just retreat to his newly purchased 4.7m chalet in Whistler and regroup. I can gaurantee you that his pain won't be the same as ours.
I'm reluctantly voting YES and I'm mad as hell about it.
I agree with most of what you've posted and I think we can all come to the same conclusion on the situation. This TA and the situation we're in sucks. There's no other way to put it. However, what I'm trying to point out is that the alternative in BK will be worse. Look at what is happening to our bretheren at UAL and U.
I want to defend my profession, but we've got no options right now that will produce a better result than ratifying this TA. And yes, these agreements all expire on the same date, at the same time in 6 years. How's that for leverage...all your labor contract being emendable at the same time.
Also, we have no leverage when the company is in this financial condition. The time to fix this is when they're making money...then we'll have some leverage. Right now about all we can accomplish be voting no is throwing away everything in the hopes that Carty might be removed in BK. And you know what, if he is, he'll just retreat to his newly purchased 4.7m chalet in Whistler and regroup. I can gaurantee you that his pain won't be the same as ours.
I'm reluctantly voting YES and I'm mad as hell about it.
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On 4/6/2003 10
51 AM WO/drone wrote:
The industry is changing...... It will change no matter if we like it or not. The steel industry, unions and corporations resisted the change, look at steel now. Yes we are a different economy, but this forces change. The auto industry changed, painful but they are still here. Airlines are a service industry, right?, the market will drive us. No matter who is in the white house, things are going to be different, cry all we want, wish for the old days, you still will be swept by the tide.
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Are you one of those:On 4/6/2003 10
51 AM WO/drone wrote:The industry is changing...... It will change no matter if we like it or not. The steel industry, unions and corporations resisted the change, look at steel now. Yes we are a different economy, but this forces change. The auto industry changed, painful but they are still here. Airlines are a service industry, right?, the market will drive us. No matter who is in the white house, things are going to be different, cry all we want, wish for the old days, you still will be swept by the tide.
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"There is Nothing We Can Do" employees?
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On 4/6/2003 9:41:05 AM AA80Driver wrote:
Bob,
I agree with most of what you''ve posted and I think we can all come to the same conclusion on the situation. This TA and the situation we''re in sucks. There''s no other way to put it. However, what I''m trying to point out is that the alternative in BK will be worse. Look at what is happening to our bretheren at UAL and U.
I''m reluctantly voting YES and I''m mad as hell about it.
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I must be uninformed.On 4/6/2003 9:41:05 AM AA80Driver wrote:
Bob,
I agree with most of what you''ve posted and I think we can all come to the same conclusion on the situation. This TA and the situation we''re in sucks. There''s no other way to put it. However, what I''m trying to point out is that the alternative in BK will be worse. Look at what is happening to our bretheren at UAL and U.
I''m reluctantly voting YES and I''m mad as hell about it.
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Tell us exactly what is happening at U and UAL that proves BK would be worse? Or are you repeating a fear campaign?
These guys must have forgot about the TWU and other AA unions willing to lead the industry backwards.
For those of you from TWA, welcome to the weakest Unions in the industry and the Airline the always leads in Industry Concessions.
For those of you from TWA, welcome to the weakest Unions in the industry and the Airline the always leads in Industry Concessions.
Don''t be so sure that Carty will be removed. If you look at the other carriers, the CEOs were retained and given bonuses to keep them. And as for his mistakes, they are right in our faces right now. But I would rather have the devil here than starting up another discount carrier to compete even more with us.
The industry is changing...... It will change no matter if we like it or not. The steel industry, unions and corporations resisted the change, look at steel now. Yes we are a different economy, but this forces change. The auto industry changed, painful but they are still here. Airlines are a service industry, right?, the market will drive us. No matter who is in the white house, things are going to be different, cry all we want, wish for the old days, you still will be swept by the tide.
