Interesting how European airlines are keeping their crews in Seoul now as a safety precaution. Flights are changing crews there. More and more evacuations are being ordered due to the threat of radiation.... Wonder when US airlines will go to plan B?
Japan Flights
- Thread starter fltguymk
- Start date
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,375
I assume the crews are only doing a SEL-NRT-SEL turn.
US-JP flying is a bit more challenging... you could drop into Sapporo or Nagoya, change/RON the crew, head to NRT and then flag-stop on the way back on a NGO-NRT-ANC-XXX routing... just an example. It's expensive in terms of crew time, but cheaper than double-crewing.
NRT is within 100 miles of the plant; HND is outside that area. Operating to/from HND may be slightly safer. I don't know where the crew hotels are in relation to either airport, but I'd certainly want to keep crews at close-to-airport hotels (with dedicated transport) and ready to scramble the planes on an hour's notice.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=FKS%2C+nrt%2C+kix%2C+NGO%2C+HND%0D%0A%0D%0A&R=100mi%40FKS%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=mi
US-JP flying is a bit more challenging... you could drop into Sapporo or Nagoya, change/RON the crew, head to NRT and then flag-stop on the way back on a NGO-NRT-ANC-XXX routing... just an example. It's expensive in terms of crew time, but cheaper than double-crewing.
NRT is within 100 miles of the plant; HND is outside that area. Operating to/from HND may be slightly safer. I don't know where the crew hotels are in relation to either airport, but I'd certainly want to keep crews at close-to-airport hotels (with dedicated transport) and ready to scramble the planes on an hour's notice.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=FKS%2C+nrt%2C+kix%2C+NGO%2C+HND%0D%0A%0D%0A&R=100mi%40FKS%0D%0A&MS=wls&DU=mi
Typical reply from you!!!!!! It's not about the planes, it's about peoples safety!!! And, it's not about $$$$. It's about operating a route during dangerous conditions! LAX NRT is not any different than CDG NRT. Air France/KLM, etc, do not want their crews laying over in Japan, period. This is due to the unstable conditions of the nuclear reactors there... They are basing ops out of Seoul and flying to Japan as a tag leg. In and out...
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,375
Oh, spare me the drama. Go look at a map. Unless you plan to stop in Magadan, Siberia (about 1800 miles NE of NRT), there's nowhere to do a en-route crew change and still have enough duty time to fly a turn. And putting crews in Magadan is nowhere nearly the same proposition as putting crews in Seoul.
And you're dumb enough to assume it's about the airplanes? Who do you think would be on the airplanes if you were scrambling them?? Crews. Why would you want them close to the airport? To get out of dodge, instead of being stranded downtown.
At least one airline moved their crews out to the airport, and another is rumored to have positioned a hot spare there "just in case". Overflying to Korea isn't an option. Extending the duty day isn't an option, either. But circle-routing the airplanes to avoid overnights is.
Short of abandoning Japan flying, what's your solution?
And you're dumb enough to assume it's about the airplanes? Who do you think would be on the airplanes if you were scrambling them?? Crews. Why would you want them close to the airport? To get out of dodge, instead of being stranded downtown.
At least one airline moved their crews out to the airport, and another is rumored to have positioned a hot spare there "just in case". Overflying to Korea isn't an option. Extending the duty day isn't an option, either. But circle-routing the airplanes to avoid overnights is.
Short of abandoning Japan flying, what's your solution?
Wow, you are clueless! What is a "hot spare?" This terminology is not in our AA vocab...... Get a grip! I will try an explain it to you as best as possible. Crews at AF are flying Paris Seoul, then layover. Next day, a Seoul Tokyo turn, layover in Seoul again. Next day, work Seoul back to Paris..... I have a friend at AF who is doing it!!!!! They do not want ANYONE staying in Japan, period. Like I said, in and out they are.
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,375
You ask what a hot spare is, and you call me clueless?.... It might not be in your vocab, but trust me, you're probably in the minority who doesn't understand it.
It's a spare airplane, not in the schedule, clear of MEL's and ready to move. Is that simple enough, or do you need me to put it in Dr. Seuss language?
Again, what do you propose AA do? Fly to Seoul just because it's on the way from Europe? Have you looked at a map to see how much out of the way that might be?
You're the one saying they need a Plan B. What should it be?
How should AA avoid having crews layover in Japan?
Are APFA, APA, and the FAA going to waive contracts & duty time requirements and allow a SEL-NRT-LAX routing?
You've got lots of dramatic language, and no solutions to offer. So please. Enlighten us.
In case you didn't notice, or are Sarah Palin, there's nothing between Alaska and Japan except the Kamchakta Peninsula and Sakhalin Island. Neither place is conducive for a medical diversion, let alone a crew change. There are two quasi-suitable airports in Russia -- Magadan and Petropavlovsk. Both have 11000+ runways, but acceptable hotels and fuel quality might be a problem.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LAX-SEL-NRT-LAX-GDX-NRT-PKC-LAX-CTS-NRT,+FKS&DU=mi
Notice that both ANC & FAI are a minimum of 3400 miles one way. You can't schedule a crew to fly 8 hours there, and 8 hours back to Alaska.
Japan is a big country. Avoiding Honshu is smart. But you don't need to avoid the entire country. Yet.
So far, Sapporo and Hokkaido seem to be largely unaffected by both the earthquake and the tsunami, aside from some damage on the south-eastern side of the island (Sapporo is on the northwest side, and it's a pretty big island).
But you're obviously the expert. I'm clueless.
So, Mr. Crew/Airplane Scheduler. What's your grand plan?
It's a spare airplane, not in the schedule, clear of MEL's and ready to move. Is that simple enough, or do you need me to put it in Dr. Seuss language?
Again, what do you propose AA do? Fly to Seoul just because it's on the way from Europe? Have you looked at a map to see how much out of the way that might be?
You're the one saying they need a Plan B. What should it be?
How should AA avoid having crews layover in Japan?
Are APFA, APA, and the FAA going to waive contracts & duty time requirements and allow a SEL-NRT-LAX routing?
You've got lots of dramatic language, and no solutions to offer. So please. Enlighten us.
In case you didn't notice, or are Sarah Palin, there's nothing between Alaska and Japan except the Kamchakta Peninsula and Sakhalin Island. Neither place is conducive for a medical diversion, let alone a crew change. There are two quasi-suitable airports in Russia -- Magadan and Petropavlovsk. Both have 11000+ runways, but acceptable hotels and fuel quality might be a problem.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LAX-SEL-NRT-LAX-GDX-NRT-PKC-LAX-CTS-NRT,+FKS&DU=mi
Notice that both ANC & FAI are a minimum of 3400 miles one way. You can't schedule a crew to fly 8 hours there, and 8 hours back to Alaska.
Japan is a big country. Avoiding Honshu is smart. But you don't need to avoid the entire country. Yet.
So far, Sapporo and Hokkaido seem to be largely unaffected by both the earthquake and the tsunami, aside from some damage on the south-eastern side of the island (Sapporo is on the northwest side, and it's a pretty big island).
But you're obviously the expert. I'm clueless.
So, Mr. Crew/Airplane Scheduler. What's your grand plan?
For the record, I am a flight attendant for AA.
Can someone please help me explain this to E??? If you mention "hot spare" to any flight attendant or pilot at AA they will look at you like you have 2 heads!!! And trying to throw around the "MEL" term will not get you any credit. We all know what a spare aircraft is. In my 14 years at AA, "hot" has NEVER been used.
When did I ever propose flying to NRT out of Europe or Alaska. I was using Air France/KLM (European carriers in general) as an example how they were keeping their crews out of Japan for overnights!
What I propose is no diff. than the 4 day trips we fly to South America that have a tag leg. Yes, "Tag leg!"
Flying to Seoul from the US requires no change in any AA contract!
If you don't get it by now, you never will.......
Can someone please help me explain this to E??? If you mention "hot spare" to any flight attendant or pilot at AA they will look at you like you have 2 heads!!! And trying to throw around the "MEL" term will not get you any credit. We all know what a spare aircraft is. In my 14 years at AA, "hot" has NEVER been used.
When did I ever propose flying to NRT out of Europe or Alaska. I was using Air France/KLM (European carriers in general) as an example how they were keeping their crews out of Japan for overnights!
What I propose is no diff. than the 4 day trips we fly to South America that have a tag leg. Yes, "Tag leg!"
Flying to Seoul from the US requires no change in any AA contract!
If you don't get it by now, you never will.......
Would it be feasible to overnight the crews at KIX or NGO? As E said, Japan is a really big country (it's like California) so it's not as though the entire country is likely to be contaminated with nuclear fallout even if the affected plants completely melt down.
eolesen
Veteran
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2003
- Messages
- 15,959
- Reaction score
- 9,375
The problem as I see it is legalities, FWAAA.
LAX-NRT and LAX-SEL are both around eleven hours. Pilots wouldn't be legal to fly a tag after that inbound segment.
Maybe flight attendants would, but absent a waiver in the contract and from the FAA, I don't see it working. Even with four man augmentation, I don't think they'd be legal. But maybe I'm wrong.
That's why I suggested doing a LAX-CTS-NRT-CTS-NRT (or any of the Siberian points) routing with a crew change only at CTS to get the plane in/out of NRT with a fresh & legal crew, and then out as far as they could go legally or even back to the change point.
It also might just be easier to operate in/out of an airport like KIX which is in the safe zone, and contract with JL to carry pax the remainder of the way. That too would probably require a waiver from the unions, since it would be essentially a charter...
LAX-NRT and LAX-SEL are both around eleven hours. Pilots wouldn't be legal to fly a tag after that inbound segment.
Maybe flight attendants would, but absent a waiver in the contract and from the FAA, I don't see it working. Even with four man augmentation, I don't think they'd be legal. But maybe I'm wrong.
That's why I suggested doing a LAX-CTS-NRT-CTS-NRT (or any of the Siberian points) routing with a crew change only at CTS to get the plane in/out of NRT with a fresh & legal crew, and then out as far as they could go legally or even back to the change point.
It also might just be easier to operate in/out of an airport like KIX which is in the safe zone, and contract with JL to carry pax the remainder of the way. That too would probably require a waiver from the unions, since it would be essentially a charter...
N288AA
Member
Just fyi....I am a Crew Chief on the ramp at DFW with 25 yrs and we have aircraft to come over from the hanger to park open gates (unmanned)....these are called hot spares that we use when another goes OTS......
I never neglected the geography. I was only using the other carriers as an example. They are moving their overnight ops as far away as possible, "in case of" to protect their crews.
What if the pilots and FAs don't fly the AA 777 to NGO or KIX but instead connect to a JAL flight from NRT to one of those other cities? Might need to grant them an extra day of layover given the delay in getting to their room but that might be a more economical option.
fltguymk: If money were no object, sure, AA could move enough extra planes and crews into position to do what you propose. But if that solution is too costly, it might make more sense to simply not fly to Japan for a while. Yes, it is all about money. Money is the only reason that AA flies its planes to anywhere, including Japan.
My prediction is that a lot of capacity USA-Japan is pulled down in the next few days.
fltguymk: If money were no object, sure, AA could move enough extra planes and crews into position to do what you propose. But if that solution is too costly, it might make more sense to simply not fly to Japan for a while. Yes, it is all about money. Money is the only reason that AA flies its planes to anywhere, including Japan.
My prediction is that a lot of capacity USA-Japan is pulled down in the next few days.
You are so frustrating .... Read me post clearly.... Work USA SEL, then LAYOVER! Next day, SEL NRT turn around, then LAYOVER! Then work SEL back to US last day. There is no multiple leg segments. A 4 day trip is made of it. Same could be done with KIX or NGO.
I am questing our crews safety laying over in NRT/HND. European airlines have modified their OPS.
AHH relief! Thank you. Yes, something is gonna give in the next 48 hours.
