July - IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[700UW]

The NLC is the nation’s only union-based college. Union members can earn their college degree in a program that balances the needs between work, family and study by combining online course work and periods of on-campus study at the college. IAM members have an added advantage because the NLC coordinates their program with the IAM’s William W. Winpisinger Education and Technology Center, allowing IAM students to use the Center to complete part of their course work. Also, many of the Winpisinger Center programs are now accredited and can be used for college-degree programs.

Tapping into the wealth of experience that is among the IAM’s greatest resources, International President Tom Buffenbarger named Sito Pantoja to become the newest member of the IAM Executive Council. Pantoja will begin serving as General Vice President (GVP) of the Transportation Territory on January 1, 2012 and succeed current Transportation GVP Robert Roach, Jr., who will become the IAM’s General Secretary-Treasurer.
Pantoja, a 34-year IAM member who began his union career as a Shop Steward at Local 1056 in New York while working as a TWA aircraft mechanic, went on to hold numerous IAM positions before being appointed Grand Lodge Special Representative in 1999. A graduate of Aviation High School in New York and the National Labor College in Maryland, Pantoja is a current member of Local 949 in St. Louis, MO and has served as Chief of Staff to Transportation GVP Robert Roach, Jr. since 2005.
“Sito’s leadership skills have been on display at every level of this union for more than three decades,” said International President Tom Buffenbarger. “He understands the importance of direct contact with the membership and he knows how to manage the complex laws that govern organizing, bargaining and contract administration in the air and rail sector. His insights and his experience will be invaluable for the nearly 100,000 members in the transportation sector.”

Ah you make this too easy Jester, lol

 

[Jester]

:::buzz.... buzzz... buzzzz... Jester, lol

What's that annoying buzzing sound... probably that interloping pest that I pay little attention... where's the Raid?

So Sprays Jester.

 

[Jester]

Jester,

Approaching Labor contracts with a list of leaders who are non-academics is more than troubling, it is insane and the sorta thing that we would expect from the resulting predicament the IAM and other unions see themselves in.

I haven't been a fan of Roach but when I worked with him, things got done. Don't get me wrong, he was a real prick at first dictating to the District about Airtran and United organizing but I 'communicated' with him [with Delaney's blessing], in a way in which Rich was frightened to, to protect the autonomy of the District Organizing department. And to Roach's credit, he yielded twice. Roach and the INTL have negotiations in their blood [as they should] and that means that District's, Local's and even their spouses must learn that negotiations never stop with these guys. Again, that's the way it should be for men/women in those positions.

As far as Roach's Cornell education, it has merit. It is an outstanding accelerated Labor studies program condensed in 8 weeks, and IMO, is awesome.

As far as our negotiators/leaders, most of them came from the ramp where they had to bust their arse just to make a living with little time to go to college. IMO, a sabbatical program available from our District/INTL for a select few who will be lead negotiators is very wise.

I know Roabilly has said that the two week AGC school with the accompanying "Scarecrow Diploma" is sufficient and puts them at 'even par' with company attorneys who spent 12 years of their life in school and still have recurring educational programs to tend to. I think most will disagree with Roabilly's assessment though.

regards,

Tim,

I just cannot get too excited about 8 week programs attempting to cram even 1 year into something meaningful and memorable. So much of education is a "disgestion" process of contemplation and consideration. When I took summer classes, I always took the easiest classes as they required less thought and less understanding of bigger issues beyond the immediacy of the subject matter at hand. Nor do I think a ersatz diploma mill of marginal indoctrination, errrr... education value such as the Whizzyhutt school provides just enough information to be dangerous to the Membership with delusions of adequacy.

Don't get me wrong... continuing education is a wonderful thing, especially as laws and regulations change, along with new information of science and technology, but I would expect any professionals representing its
constituencies to keep informed on the subject matter should not need to boast about something they should already be doing.

So Concurs Jester.

 

[ograc]

Kev,

It is not so much those parts of the CBA that bother me, because afterall, for example, we are not getting back all lost stations (if any), and language which says to the effect that Management "may" use contractors in the event of a certain number of average weekly mainline flights vs. Management "must" use contractors. Somethings do require some degree of discretion, but I am more bothered by ambiguous and vague language and when entire sections are absent from a standard contract, thus leaving Management the assumptive authority to make their own policies.

However, I think we can hope for the best, but I will continue to expect the worse, because the underlying expertise of those handling our contractual affair are far from ideal. We still have an "Amateur Hour" NC and our EC wouldn't be qualified to manage a few convenience stores, let alone a nationwide organization of tens of thousands of union members.

For example, here's our EC's accomplishments in higher education according to their own bios:

R. Thomas Buffenbarger: No College Education Listed.
Dave Ritchie: No College Education Listed.
Lynn D. Tucker, Jr.: No College Education Listed.
Robert Martinez, Jr.: No College Education Listed.
Richard P. Michalski: No College Education Listed.
Philip J. Gruber: No College Education Listed.
Gary Allen: No College Education Listed.
Mark Blondin: No College Education Listed.

And the two bright points....
Robert Roach: “Bachelor of Science degree in Labor and Management Relations at the Empire State Labor College and is a graduate of the Labor Studies program at the Cornell School of Labor.”
Sito Pantoja: “Bachelor's Degree in Labor Studies from the National Labor College.”

Mr. Roach's appears to have a reasonable level of education from a SUNY program, although I did find it rather odd that the correct name of his school as listed from the official college website as the “School of Industrial and Labor Relations," but maybe names changed over time. The Cornell listing is impressive, but having been around academia, I smell weasel language as "the Labor Studies program" appears to be a continuing education program, and as there to be no mention of a Bachelor, Masters or Doctoral degree conferred with his studies.

Mr. Pantoja's program is suspect, in my opinion. The National Labor College has only a regional accreditation starting in 2004 through the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, and I have serious doubts that most of the college credits would be transferable or recognized in more established programs due to the lack of academic standards. Furthermore, as 2004 was not that long ago, when was Mr. Pantoja part of the student body, as he is not exactly a young man?

So our Executive Committee, the Gang of 10, has a total of ONE 4-year degree program from any Nationally recognized institute of higher learning? Even if we were to be generous and include Mr. Pantoja's program, that's a total of two college degreed people as the overseers to our CBA? Hell, for all I know, our NC might be better educated!

Any doubts as to why Fleet Service continues to get substandard language in our contracts, along with other issues?

So Reviews Jester.

Jester,
How can we expect to make any meaningful gains when we continue to "bash" the leadership and Negotiating Committees of our union? In my years in the industry I have met many college educated idiots on both sides. One thing I know for certain is without solidarity the group will be divided and conquered. I don't care how many lawyers or college educated idiots you have on your E Board or Negotiating Committee. Substandard language in our contracts? The contractual language was voted on and ratified by the membership. Maybe it's time to, collectively, take a look in the mirror.
ograc

 

[Jester]

Jester,
How can we expect to make any meaningful gains when we continue to "bash" the leadership and Negotiating Committees of our union? In my years in the industry I have met many college educated idiots on both sides. One thing I know for certain is without solidarity the group will be divided and conquered. I don't care how many lawyers or college educated idiots you have on your E Board or Negotiating Committee. Substandard language in our contracts? The contractual language was voted on and ratified by the membership. Maybe it's time to, collectively, take a look in the mirror.
ograc

Wow... what an amazing disappointment from you, Ograc!

Sadly, you draw upon the old bromide by pandering to the uneducated and untrained to remind people of those educated fools who you think represents the whole of the educational elite. Additionally, you then superimpose the rank-and-file as being bestowed with some self-taught genius pining away during their off-time over legal trestises covering labor law and advanced economics! And then in as final encore, with a logical twist of blind gumption, the same group you think are bag mashing prodigies, you blame for ratifying the contract?!

Yes, you are absolutely right... we need to forgo the legal and financial experts and wage our own Maoist Cultural Revolution within our union purging the educated professionals from not only our ranks but within our inner circle of advisors. Of course, I am sure that whenever after the ratification of the next CBA and a legal hearing, a Judge or Arbitator will sympathize with our anti-intellectual views realizing our legal advisors (ourselves) were fools.

So Mocks Jester.

 

[roabilly]

Cargo,

Don't waste your breath on "Jestelson"!

I've dealt with them (him) for years on here... their (his) goal is divide, cast doubt, and interfere. The new subject is education, it was retirement a few pages back, but they wore that out for now.

Don't worry though they'll be back to it...It goes in cycles...

 

[psa8979]

ROABILLY you are being way to nice concerning these YAHOOS. My advise to both . Willard Romney @ Teaparty maybe could use THEIR logic and advise ?

 

[ograc]

Cargo,

Don't waste your breath on "Jestelson"!

I've dealt with them (him) for years on here... their (his) goal is divide, cast doubt, and interfere. The new subject is education, it was retirement a few pages back, but they wore that out for now.

Don't worry though they'll be back to it...It goes in cycles...

Sometimes those who proclaim to be educated and insinuate they are better than their peers because of it lack common sense. I propose we disregard and get back to a meaningful and productive dialogue. If we, collectively as a group, hope to achieve meaningful gains it is about building solidarity among the members. It doesn't require a college education to figure that out. I solicited input from members of this forum concerning what issues need to be addressed in contract negotiations. Some have provided insightfull input. Some continue to spread a divisive message. It has been duly noted by myself and hopefully others.
ograc (aka...cargo)

 

[Jester]

Sometimes those who proclaim to be educated and insinuate they are better than their peers because of it lack common sense. I propose we disregard and get back to a meaningful and productive dialogue. If we, collectively as a group, hope to achieve meaningful gains it is about building solidarity among the members. It doesn't require a college education to figure that out. I solicited input from members of this forum concerning what issues need to be addressed in contract negotiations. Some have provided insightfull input. Some continue to spread a divisive message. It has been duly noted by myself and hopefully others.
ograc (aka...cargo)

Thanks Cargo,

My blinders never fit me so well as when the groupthink of narrow-minded people who unable to examine possibilities beyond their own belief systems attempt to control the discussion.

Now the negotiations are in full swing, and based upon what I am seeing here, and Car 54 and his crew of brat eaters, there will be gnashing of teeth once again when the T.A. is announced, but an unwillingness to change our continued insanity of repeating the same mistakes and looking for a different outcome.

Maybe Roabilly could contribute to the cause and doodle a cartoon strip on the inside cover of the next CBA to make us feel better about our plight? How about "Sad Sack" but with a ramper theme, as we continue the silliness and ineptness of our union and Management abuses?

So Forecasts Jester.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Wow... what an amazing disappointment from you, Ograc!

Sadly, you draw upon the old bromide by pandering to the uneducated and untrained to remind people of those educated fools who you think represents the whole of the educational elite. Additionally, you then superimpose the rank-and-file as being bestowed with some self-taught genius pining away during their off-time over legal trestises covering labor law and advanced economics! And then in as final encore, with a logical twist of blind gumption, the same group you think are bag mashing prodigies, you blame for ratifying the contract?!

Yes, you are absolutely right... we need to forgo the legal and financial experts and wage our own Maoist Cultural Revolution within our union purging the educated professionals from not only our ranks but within our inner circle of advisors. Of course, I am sure that whenever after the ratification of the next CBA and a legal hearing, a Judge or Arbitator will sympathize with our anti-intellectual views realizing our legal advisors (ourselves) were fools.

So Mocks Jester.

Jester, you are 'spot on'.

Further, the lack of solidarity on US AIRWAYS and United is a direct reflection of the leadership, not the membership. The leadership has to learn through educational techniques on how to "Team Build" with the $12 million allotted to them. I brought in such concepts in the organizing and made it an incredible organizing machine after we built very powerful teams and solidarity in organizing drives.

The present leadership learned through observance and parrotting the winning organizing techniques but have failed to properly apply such techniques in other disciplines like representation. Once the leadership can learn how to build solidarity, then things at United in particular will be much better. Because solidarity has been damned at United, the IBT has announced plans for a new raid on the IAM at United.

regards,

 

[Kev3188]

I haven't been a fan of Roach but when I worked with him, things got done. Don't get me wrong, he was a real prick at first dictating to the District about Airtran and United organizing but I 'communicated' with him [with Delaney's blessing], in a way in which Rich was frightened to, to protect the autonomy of the District Organizing department. And to Roach's credit, he yielded twice. Roach and the INTL have negotiations in their blood [as they should] and that means that District's, Local's and even their spouses must learn that negotiations never stop with these guys. Again, that's the way it should be for men/women in those positions.

IMO, Roach is stuck in an old way of thinking that is no longer viable in today's environment. I've thought that for a long time, but it really set in as I watched 143 completely fumble the campaign(s) at DL.

As far as our negotiators/leaders, most of them came from the ramp where they had to bust their arse just to make a living with little time to go to college.

I agree that any NC should be made up of people from the classifications they represent, but they also need professional negotiators at the table. As for not having time to go to college, I respectfully disagree. I did it while working FT, and plenty of people in the stations I've worked in have done (or are doing) the same.

Don't get me wrong... continuing education is a wonderful thing, especially as laws and regulations change, along with new information of science and technology, but I would expect any professionals representing its
constituencies to keep informed on the subject matter should not need to boast about something they should already be doing.

So Concurs Jester.

IMO, continuing education should be a requirement of any elected position above the station level.

Jester,
How can we expect to make any meaningful gains when we continue to "bash" the leadership and Negotiating Committees of our union? In my years in the industry I have met many college educated idiots on both sides. One thing I know for certain is without solidarity the group will be divided and conquered. I don't care how many lawyers or college educated idiots you have on your E Board or Negotiating Committee. Substandard language in our contracts? The contractual language was voted on and ratified by the membership. Maybe it's time to, collectively, take a look in the mirror.
ograc

The substandard language should never be brought back in the first place. Nor should the phrases, "we had a gun to our head," "we just wanted to get a little cash in our members' pockets," or we'll get 'em next time" accompany it.

 

[Tim Nelson]

The substandard language should never be brought back in the first place. Nor should the phrases, "we had a gun to our head," "we just wanted to get a little cash in our members' pockets," or we'll get 'em next time" accompany it.

True. And how about "Live to fight another day". Canale was awful as witnessed by the US AIRWAYS contracts he signed. Seniority cleansing, class 2 pay, no profit sharing, no snap backs. no nothing.

Roach's problem at DL143 was that there was nobody strong in 143 to challenge him. Gordon folded into the organizing plan as set by the INTL and he didn't have an educated professional organizer who knew how to challenge the dopey INTL organizing plan.

I went to ATL for one week to help 143 knock on 5,000 doors in two weeks. We brought a 141 team there to assist. And it became very clear that the INTL simply didn't know what they were doing as the GLR's were all heading up the campaigns and were completely uneducated on the academic techniques used to change belief systems. Throw in a sure organizing victory with the Continental stews which blew up on them and you would think they would learn, but Noooooooooo. When they tried that goofy s*&%^ and bud into our airtran campaign and United ramp campaign, I was very clear with them in conversatoin and in email that I wasn't going to allow ANY GLR to step foot on the airtran campaign AT ALL, and that my department wasn't going to yield to the goofy IAM communications department or any goofy INTL organizing plans for the UA ramp. Only by eliminating or severely reducing the GLR's [who are also clueless on organizing] did we have a chance.

Unfortuantely, they are making the same mistakes all over again at Delta. Nobody knows what they are doing.

Bottom line is that I know guys like Roabily and others insist that little to no education is needed to do these sorta jobs but most union members don't realize that the lack of educated leaders is one of the biggest reasons that unions like the IAM continue to lose members. Ignorance is king and management would have it no other way.

regards,

 

[700UW]

The union does use professional financial advisers and actuaries and lawyers during negotiations.

Once again for those of you who havent been on a negotiating committee, maybe you should ask before you accuse the union of inaction.

 

[700UW]

Negotiating Team Report

July 17, 2012
Brothers and Sisters,

We met our Mediator at the beginning of the week to discuss what to expect from him through this process. He could not stay for our Negotiations but plans on being at future sessions starting in August. We stated to him that our biggest issue to date was seniority protections in case of a merger.

We had a very productive week with the company and collectively passed proposals on Classifications, Overtime, Filling of Vacancies, Medical Examinations, Holidays, Uniforms, Training and Travel, Safety and Health, and Union Shop and Dues Check Off. We are continually striving for a contract that protects our jobs and enhances wages and benefits with the surveys in mind as we progress.

Our next Negotiation sessions include the week of August 27th in Chicago and the week of October 15th in Phoenix.

In Solidarity,

Negotiations Committee

 

[roabilly]

Congratulations to all that successfully ran for the 141 officer positions...

To view the final results... please visit this site...

ELECTION RESULTS

Nelson... Really?

View attachment 9521

ONWARD!