July - IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[ograc]

We are All Airline Workers. No one should loose any Classification Seniority because of the consolidation,greed and collusion by Wall Street and Corporations merging Airlines after 1978 De-regulation Act. Division and Apathy by Union Members is what Management is counting on ! Contracts and HIRE DATE for ALL !

psa8979,
My opinion also. No front line airline employee has any say, input, or influence on decisions made by corporate officials, wall street and shareholders regarding mergers or acquisitions. We are all pawns in this chess game. So how is it certain labor organizations have contractual language, that pits one front line employee against another, with seniority integration in the event of mergers or acquisitions like the fore mentioned? One group is advantaged and the other disadvantaged regarding seniority. I find this type of language to be contradictory of unionism and divisive by nature. Management loves the division.
ograc

 

[ograc]

New subject. UA announces outsourcing in house Fleet Service cargo jobs. Countless IAM DL 141 membership lost. Although the current IAM leadership is not responsible (the Teamster CBA with the former CO employees allowed such action) it is unfortunate and a sad testament to members' job protection. Hopefully, the newly elected DL 141 Leadership Team, realizes the importance of job protection and scope in the current contract negotiations with UA and US. IMO... if you give the company the opportunity, with contract language, to outsource union represented jobs they will take advantage. In the meantime the membership dwindles and leverage is lost in negotiations. Anyone care to write the final chapter?
ograc

 

[Jester]

New subject. UA announces outsourcing in house Fleet Service cargo jobs. Countless IAM DL 141 membership lost. Although the current IAM leadership is not responsible (the Teamster CBA with the former CO employees allowed such action) it is unfortunate and a sad testament to members' job protection. Hopefully, the newly elected DL 141 Leadership Team, realizes the importance of job protection and scope in the current contract negotiations with UA and US. IMO... if you give the company the opportunity, with contract language, to outsource union represented jobs they will take advantage. In the meantime the membership dwindles and leverage is lost in negotiations. Anyone care to write the final chapter?
ograc

ograc,

I have pondered this question many times, as to how far a company may go into the contracting of work groups within the airline industry. Of course, we all know that ramp functions are commonly contracted-out, along with maintenance and catering, and even CSA especially on international flights where there is only one flight a day, but whoever heard of an airline hub contracting out its entire CSAs front line people? Well, I discovered that one after I joined a group of friends on a quick trip to LAS on Allegiant Airlines out of IWA (Phoenix - Williams) that their entire FSA and CSA workforce in LAS were contracted through an outfit called "ATS"? As I understand that Allegiant has certain days of the week where they are running close to 50 flights a day out of LAS too!

So where does it stop? I commented on another thread months ago about the future of a "virtual airline" where all non-management work force people are contracted labor, maybe even as wholly-owned subsidiaries of the parent company, much as Delta Global Services and AMR flight services were created. So from top to bottom a virtual airline could contract its entire work group within various non-management positions within companies it owns, and if a work group begins an organizing campaign, then terminate the business contract with the subsidiary. The virtual airline would create a new subsidiary under another name hiring those who weren't consider to be "troublesome" union organizers, and continue operations with nearly all contracted labor.

Over the decade I have been in this business, I have come to realize this is a miserable industry anymore, as we are just one contract from being removed the property.

So Anticipates Jester.

 

[The Bagfather]

ograc,

I have pondered this question many times, as to how far a company may go into the contracting of work groups within the airline industry. Of course, we all know that ramp functions are commonly contracted-out, along with maintenance and catering, and even CSA especially on international flights where there is only one flight a day, but whoever heard of an airline hub contracting out its entire CSAs front line people? Well, I discovered that one after I joined a group of friends on a quick trip to LAS on Allegiant Airlines out of IWA (Phoenix - Williams) that their entire FSA and CSA workforce in LAS were contracted through an outfit called "ATS"? As I understand that Allegiant has certain days of the week where they are running close to 50 flights a day out of LAS too!

So where does it stop? I commented on another thread months ago about the future of a "virtual airline" where all non-management work force people are contracted labor, maybe even as wholly-owned subsidiaries of the parent company, much as Delta Global Services and AMR flight services were created. So from top to bottom a virtual airline could contract its entire work group within various non-management positions within companies it owns, and if a work group begins an organizing campaign, then terminate the business contract with the subsidiary. The virtual airline would create a new subsidiary under another name hiring those who weren't consider to be "troublesome" union organizers, and continue operations with nearly all contracted labor.

Over the decade I have been in this business, I have come to realize this is a miserable industry anymore, as we are just one contract from being removed the property.

So Anticipates Jester.

Jester, I dont know If that scenario would preclude unionizing. There are some, I dont know how many, contract work forces who are unionized. Huntley cleaning services in SAN is one. I think they are at some other airport also. DGS could be unionized but obiviously their contract could be ended. Also ATL ramp would be against it. Also the DGS rampers would be very leary of a union if they knew the risks they were taking. But at least in SAN no one, I mean no one,gets screwed more than DGS. For instance one day they announced that all rampers, leads ops sups etc would be reduced to starting wages. Believe it or not some long term employees stayed.

The answer would be for Detla employees to unionize and then bring SAN and some of the larger field stations into the fold. But they aren't at 1% of the altruism that that would require.

Anyway for our purposes we only can support strong language in our next contract. My own feeling is that it will only at best weaken at a slow rate. To put it bluntly how many in PHX would threaten strike of take a loss of pay to bring back those field stations that were lost, or insource Mail and Freight in field stations.

And I also think (quite pessimistically, I know) that our next contract will be a TA with many consessions. Pay will probably be OK but scope will suck. But also it will likely be a minimum of four years from now. If we're TWU it could be another BK type of TA.

Anybody want to combat my pessimism? Thanks BF

 

[ograc]

Jester, I dont know If that scenario would preclude unionizing. There are some, I dont know how many, contract work forces who are unionized. Huntley cleaning services in SAN is one. I think they are at some other airport also. DGS could be unionized but obiviously their contract could be ended. Also ATL ramp would be against it. Also the DGS rampers would be very leary of a union if they knew the risks they were taking. But at least in SAN no one, I mean no one,gets screwed more than DGS. For instance one day they announced that all rampers, leads ops sups etc would be reduced to starting wages. Believe it or not some long term employees stayed.

The answer would be for Detla employees to unionize and then bring SAN and some of the larger field stations into the fold. But they aren't at 1% of the altruism that that would require.

Anyway for our purposes we only can support strong language in our next contract. My own feeling is that it will only at best weaken at a slow rate. To put it bluntly how many in PHX would threaten strike of take a loss of pay to bring back those field stations that were lost, or insource Mail and Freight in field stations.

And I also think (quite pessimistically, I know) that our next contract will be a TA with many consessions. Pay will probably be OK but scope will suck. But also it will likely be a minimum of four years from now. If we're TWU it could be another BK type of TA.

Anybody want to combat my pessimism? Thanks BF

BF,
I certainly won't combat your pessimism. IMO...The future of quality working conditions, benifits and wages for the Fleet Service IAM represented employees in this industry is to eliminate the language in contracts that allow the continual outsoursing of our craft and class. The newly elected DL 141 Leadership Team is tasked with educating the membership that this issue is paramount regarding contract negotiations going forward. What good does it do to negotiate hourly wage increases for the many members who will be eliminated over the duration of the contract? The company wants to structure contracts that pit members against members. Outsourcing language? Pay it no mind if you work in a hub station. Here's $2.00 more per hour of "blood money" to vote "yes". in this case we may have won the battle but will surely lose the war with this mentality. A huge task at hand for the DL 141 Negotiating Commitees on both the US & UA side.
ograc

 

[Kev3188]

The answer would be for Detla employees to unionize and then bring SAN and some of the larger field stations into the fold. But they aren't at 1% of the altruism that that would require.

Nothing says "uphill climb" like being a labor activist here at the Widget...

 

[The Bagfather]

Nothing says "uphill climb" like being a labor activist here at the Widget...

I like that. I hadnt heard the Widget term before. Anyhow good luck.
Another subject. AA FSAs are being outsourced in SAN. Probably in Dec.
They were just under the threshold of Flts/wk which was something like 100, So the question is could we be gone If Doug proclaims that SAN will be an American Station
after the merger?

Also welcome back M33 and a couple other of our guys who succesfully non rev'd to the olympics.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Voted in under exterme duress with your management having an active role in the proceedings apparently.I read through the thread on the WN board, lots of wailing about having the FL guys reapply, get stapled outright,go back on probation or simply lose their jobs altogether.

An arbitrated decision is what it is.

No one at AA got a 12 year seniority 'boost' over any TWA guy.

JFK Fleet Service,

does the rejection of the pilot contract affect the fleet service contract?

As far as fleet service seniority, I imagine the MBA will rule regardless of who buys who since a representation election is unlikely.

Since the IAM's position contains superseniority provisions for the IAM southwest employees over the airtran IAM employees [heavy rumor that the IAM will not use date of hire but will apply the ramp MBA determination to upstairs], it may follow that if US AIRWAYS bails out AMR then the IAM may argue for US AIRWAYS IAM members to have a seniority advantage. As aside, I still have Roach's letter guaranteeing the airtran customer service that the IAM will do straight date of hire at airtran in the merger.

The TWU's initial position will most definately be argue for a seniority advantage for its members.

At any rate, I wouldn't blame either union for fighting for their members for the best possible seniority outcome, and the MBA certainly is a law that has been seen to create a level playing field.

regards,

 

[IAM Informer]

New subject. UA announces outsourcing in house Fleet Service cargo jobs. Countless IAM DL 141 membership lost. Although the current IAM leadership is not responsible (the Teamster CBA with the former CO employees allowed such action) it is unfortunate and a sad testament to members' job protection. Hopefully, the newly elected DL 141 Leadership Team, realizes the importance of job protection and scope in the current contract negotiations with UA and US. IMO... if you give the company the opportunity, with contract language, to outsource union represented jobs they will take advantage. In the meantime the membership dwindles and leverage is lost in negotiations. Anyone care to write the final chapter?
ograc

I have to disagree with you on the responsibilty of those lost jobs. the ND blew numerous opportunity's to gain leverage
over management but handed it over to Smisk . The ND did nothing at US property when they prematurely closed those
stations last Dec. More jobs have been lost under the ND than any other time (Excluding BK) . what does that tell ya
both US and UA are making record profits however the management teams just do what they want . That is because they
know the leadership at 141 will NOT do anything about it. It is only going to get worse. I hope no one is planning any major
purchases in the next year.

 

[ograc]

I have to disagree with you on the responsibilty of those lost jobs. the ND blew numerous opportunity's to gain leverage
over management but handed it over to Smisk . The ND did nothing at US property when they prematurely closed those
stations last Dec. More jobs have been lost under the ND than any other time (Excluding BK) . what does that tell ya
both US and UA are making record profits however the management teams just do what they want . That is because they
know the leadership at 141 will NOT do anything about it. It is only going to get worse. I hope no one is planning any major
purchases in the next year.

In defense of the ND Team... from a candidate who ran against the team this past election... they have inherited contracts and TAs negotiated by previous leadership teams that resulted from bankruptcy proceedings. The IAM has a lot of digging out of the hole we, as a membership, have been put in as a result of recent history. Leverage and the ability to do something is reliant on legally binding contract language. The fortunes of UA and US have changed from where they were a few years ago. It's time for the IAM to get back what we have sacrificed and lost. Unfortunately, it may take years and a couple contracts to regain what has been taken and lost. IMO... securing your membership base, by eliminating subcontracting of our work, is the cornerstone to regaining what has been lost.
ograc

 

[necigrad]

Ugh! I took some time off from the board becuase I was sick of the election period Tim Nelson Show. I come back to find all but the last 5 pages or so of this thread pretty much Tim and 700UW fighting. Disgusting.

That said, I'm liking the last few pages. Scope and seniority are the most important. There's no point in having benefits for a job that doesn't exist.

 

[700UW]

I know its about UA,but once their settled 141 can focus on US.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-announces-expedited-negotiations-international-190000860.html

 

[ograc]

I know its about UA,but once their settled 141 can focus on US.

http://finance.yahoo...-190000860.html

700UW,
Thanks for the link! Our Sisters and Brothers at UA have been in negotiations longer than members on the US property. Contract agreements are long overdue. IMO... any agreement on the UA property will be a benchmark for US contract negotiations...that is if we are IAM members... with the looming AA merger / acquisition when the dust settles.
ograc

 

[necigrad]

I don't see how that will affect anything. Any hangup with US negotiations has been on the Companys side, not the Unions.

 

[ograc]

I don't see how that will affect anything. Any hangup with US negotiations has been on the Companys side, not the Unions.

necigrad,
The "hangup" in negotiations is indeed on the company's side. What is gained with any ratified agreement with the IAM on UA property would surely be taken into consideration by the District regarding US negotiations. Our IAM District negotiates contracts throughout the industry. IMO... one agreement, would affect the other within the District and the industry, regarding future contracts.
IMO... a TA will be reached on UA property before US and the IAM US Negotiating Committee will carefully review and negotiate accordingly. I'm relatively certain the company will review any IAM contract ratifications that occur at UA and negotiate accordingly. IMO... one truly affects the other.
ograc