July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Thanks for the response, just saw it.

Bean

You're most welcome sir...again, for the half cent any supposed "wisdom" of mine might actually be worth 😉

 

[Pi brat]

Nothing like a visual aid to drive the point home. How about, since the east is so happy to sit on LOA 93, the west joins AA and works on a new contract. We can keep the east seperate so they can enjoy their attrition. Sound like a deal? DAL 737 FO makes more than an east 767 Captain????????? Geeeeesh........ It's no wonder a guy there that I went through flight school with just bought a new BMW motorcycle and boat. I'm sick and tired of explaining to pilots that ask, that the reason we don't have a new contract is because our union doesn't want one.

Bean

Bean,

Besides LS I find you one of the most level headed posters on here, but have to call bs in this one. BOTH sides have gone to the wall on this and ALL decided they were on the best path for themselves.

 

[EastUS1]

So your statement about what I "earned in PHX" is complete horse crap. Because the arbitrator loked at what we all brought to the merger not what we brought to your little corner of it.

"what I "earned in PHX"...? That's not any "horse crap" at all. You just don't much care for it to be pointed out that you've personally EARNED far, far less than you WANT and would, VERY obviously, cheerfully take from others, "Because the arbitrator loked at.." (speaking of "horse crap"...?) 😉 Oh well. That's your problem, not mine. 😉

Since you felt the need to jump in on this; I'll ask of you the same question: "WTF did you EVER personally do (besides NOTHING) for any such absurdly inflated, combined "seniority" position to be "awarded" to you?" 😉

What is it that you personally "brought to the merger" besides yourself?

 

[EastUS1]

BOTH sides have gone to the wall on thus and ALL decided they were on the best path for themselves.

That much is certainly true.

 

[traderjake]

There are probably 2 guys on the property who think this. He can hang with Jim at the rest home, and Traitor.

Join CM's pilotaction yahoo group and you'll see how many East pilots think and post like me on a regular basis. I'll even recommend you.

How many East pilots are not USAPA members and how many of those support USAPA?

Shouldn't you be pool side or by the shore instead of on the computer today?

 

[Beancounter]

Bean,

Besides LS i find you one if the most level headed posters on here but have to call bs in this one. BOTH sides have gone to the wall on thus and ALL decided they were on the best path for themselves.

Thanks, but I disagree. Our union has been doing everything it can to cause delay in getting a new contract. I love the fact they blame Parker when they're the ones that have given him reason after reason not to bargain. Must be nice to have so many scape goats. Besides, I'm not saying there wouldn’t be pay parity, I'm just saying if you guys don't want to negotiate in good faith, let someone else.

Would I like to have four stripes again one day? Yeah, I'd like having the responsibility again, but not for FO wages. Could we get Delta rates? Highly unlikely, but C'mon FO narrowbody rates better than our widebody captain rates, that's embarrassing.

Well, I've got to go. Wish I could say I was walking down to the lake to go swimming or buming, but the truth is the wife took the kids to visit a friend and I have to go do some toy pick up and house cleaning. Can't afford a house keeper B)

Bean

 

[CallawayGolf]

Bean,

Besides LS I find you one of the most level headed posters on here, but have to call bs in this one. BOTH sides have gone to the wall on this and ALL decided they were on the best path for themselves.

Seems to me most on the west would be happy for USAPA to negotiate a reasonable contract, section 22 aside. If it passes with the NIC, great then the legal battles would be over. If it passes with something other than the NIC, that just hastens the trip back to court to challenge USAPA on DFR II with an unquestionably ripe triggering event. Either way the log jam gets cleared and the process moves along. IMO the east is the only group that is happy to see separate ops continuing indefinitely. Only a merger or a ruling from Silver putting an end to the delay with USAPA at the helm. Interestingly, both of those actions would be the result of the Company taking steps to attain a new contract, not USAPA. That should speak volumes as to the odds USAPA leadership places on getting a contract that doesn't contain the NIC one way or the other.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Doesn't the bid announcement look more like staffing the 190 for additional planes? We have had guys coming and going from that thing since we got it and I don't remember a jump like that. If they are going to come quickly they would have to train ahead. If they don't come we know this outfit doesn't care about sending everyone back to school.

This is a perfect example of you going out of your way to go against those you don't like. The guy that is now sitting were you used to sit, closing the bid.

No, it doesn't look like staffing for more planes. Just look at the last bid and the extra staffing on the 190 - was that for new planes and if so where are they? The 190 has been overstaffed on every bid this year - where are the new planes such overstaffing was for?

Retireements start again in December, which will finally bring attrition. In January someone will have to fly the schedule that those retiring in Dec/Jan would have flown. Being overstaffed on the bottom positions creates the pool to fill positions as pilots move up because of attrition, without the 190 being understaffed itself. Remember, it takes longer for a new hire to be on the line than to train a 190 captain to be a 76I FO, so more lead time is needed when replacements for attrition mean filling the bottom jobs first - the 190's.

So take your "perfect example" and shove it where all the bs comes from...

Jim

 

[EastUS1]

IMO the east is the only group that is happy to see separate ops continuing indefinitely.

What's your point?

 

[CallawayGolf]

What's your point?

That any JCBA will include the NIC so delaying the inevitable implementation of the arbitrated list is the only trick the USAPA pony knows how to perform. Without a vote it is impossible to tell with any certainty where the rank-and-file would vote at this point, but clearly the officers of USAPA past and present prefer to forego any and all contract improvements in the other section of the CBA in order to avoid seeing the NIC get ratified. So they delay, delay and then delay some more rather than facing the situation head on like one would expect.

 

[EastUS1]

So they delay, delay and then delay some more rather than facing the situation head on like one would expect.

"...rather than facing the situation head on..."? = Nonsense. Any strategy that even potentially defeats the nic has long been tacitly acceptable in the east. I'd say, although I disagree with your notions here, that "...delay, delay and then delay some more.." should tell you several things immediately:

1) That the nic is so incredibly toxic to the east that...well...you figure that part out, if you haven't been able to thus far...
2) That any contract including the nic, that would even be potentially ratifiable, would have to be something so completely offscale to anything that's even been dreamt of thus far, that continued status quo is apparently preferable.
3) That the ones most loudly complaining are in the west...which again speaks volumes about the nic....
4) What will/can/might yet happen along the way in courtrooms/mergers/etc is completely unknown...regardless of what you say.
5) That, especially after all these years, perhaps you should consider "facing the situation head on" and reasonably acknowledge that no one's going to just cheerfully hand you your entirely unearned, and utterly ridiculous gift from St. Nic.

How this will all end is anyone's guess.....

 

[cleardirect]

"...rather than facing the situation head on..."? = Nonsense. Any strategy that even potentially defeats the nic has long been tacitly acceptable in the east. I'd say, although I disagree with your notions here, that "...delay, delay and then delay some more.." should tell you several things immediately:

1) That the nic is so incredibly toxic to the east that...well...you figure that part out, if you haven't been able to thus far...
2) That any contract including the nic, that would even be potentially ratifiable, would have to be something so completely offscale to anything that's even been dreamt of thus far, that continued status quo is apparently preferable.
3) That the ones most loudly complaining are in the west...which again speaks volumes about the nic....
4) What will/can/might yet happen along the way in courtrooms/mergers/etc is completely unknown...regardless of what you say.
5) That, especially after all these years, perhaps you should consider "facing the situation head on" and reasonably acknowledge that no one's going to just cheerfully hand you your entirely unearned, and utterly ridiculous gift from St. Nic.

At this point I don't care if you cheerfully accept the Nicolau or not. I prefer it shoved up your six with hot sauce and spikes sticking out of it.

You may think the Nicolau is toxic to the east because you did not get what you want. But you keep the position you brought./ where a DOH list places furloughed east pilots senior to west captain, how would describe that? Fair?

 

[EastUS1]

At this point I don't care if you cheerfully accept the Nicolau or not. I prefer it shoved up your six with hot sauce and spikes sticking out of it.

You may think the Nicolau is toxic to the east because you did not get what you want. But you keep the position you brought.

1) Take your best shot junior 😉 I'm past being anything other than pleasantly amused by you "internet tough guys".....gals?

2) I've zero complaints about where I sit myself....You?..clearly and directly; not-so-much 😉

3) So keep the position you, through some truly astounding twists of "thought", fantasize that you personally "brought". I'm fine with that. Last I looked? = That was in PHX 😉

Ummm...need a fresh box of tissues....? Perhaps some milk and cookies?.....A pacifier even? 😉

Aww...nevermind. The poisons in the playpen here must be getting to me. Have a good evening all.

 

[CallawayGolf]

"...rather than facing the situation head on..."? = Nonsense. Any strategy that even potentially defeats the nic has long been tacitly acceptable in the east. I'd say, although I disagree with your notions here, that "...delay, delay and then delay some more.." should tell you several things immediately:

1) That the nic is so incredibly toxic to the east that...well...you figure that part out, if you haven't been able to thus far...
2) That any contract including the nic, that would even be potentially ratifiable, would have to be something so completely offscale to anything that's even been dreamt of thus far, that continued status quo is apparently preferable.
3) That the ones most loudly complaining are in the west...which again speaks volumes about the nic....
4) What will/can/might yet happen along the way in courtrooms/mergers/etc is completely unknown...regardless of what you say.
5) That, especially after all these years, perhaps you should consider "facing the situation head on" and reasonably acknowledge that no one's going to just cheerfully hand you your entirely unearned, and utterly ridiculous gift from St. Nic.

How this will all end is anyone's guess.....

1) You can't draw valid, logical conclusions based on observing a group (east pilots) that is acting on emotion rather than using unbiased cognitive reasoning.
2) No one knows what pay rates the east will accept with a NIC contract because USAPA refuses to perform their primary function of negotiating a contract and putting it out for a vote.
3) seems to me anyone in a unionized group would complain, even loudly, if they had gone seven to ten years without a increase in pay and their elected representative advocate shows zero interest in changing the situation in order to favor one group over another.
4) of course we don't know what the future holds with mergers and federal court rulings and how they will impact this situation, but absent those events USAPA just continues to delay. That was my point, nothing else.
5) Obviously USAPA isn't going to accept the NIC until forced to do so. Again that was my point so thanks for making it again. However if USAPA had any confidence in actually getting a non-NIC list they wouldn't be engaging in their endless delay strategy but would be moving forward with good faith negotiations. Of course they can't do that because they are prevented by the west, by the company, and off and on by the courts. Time will eventually tell what the next step is once Silver rules, but you can be sure USAPA going to speed the process along before or after that ruling unless compelled to do so. That's your union at work (doing nothing to improve pilot pay for as long as possible).

 

[Black Swan]

Luvthe9 vacation, by the pool with the missus..........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIRmyfKOAfM