July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

You brought a chapter 7 airline and 1879 FURLOUGHEES. I'd love nothing more than for you to keep what you brought.

Then why do you want it so badly? To each his own I guess!

 

[EastUS1]

Never give them an opportunity to scab on you, as they will in a heartbeat. Nic4us and cleardirect are exactly the type Franke hired for this.

Agreed in full.

 

[EastUS1]

Would you still support permanent fences if Parker decided to keep the east at min block hours and open a new west base in Florida and add all new flying and aircraft to that base?

He offers the flying to whoever does it the cheapest. Since you guys are the cheapest.....

1) Yep. I would. Especially since combining with the west at this point in time would be incredibly foolish for any out east.
2) Oh well...so much for your FLA fantasy then...or any growth whatsoever that involves the west.

As for PHX in general? Well boys; hold on to your lugnuts should this abortion be "merged" with American. The only virtual certainty with any merger in this climate is "right sizing"/jobs gone. Nothing whatsoever, in ANY way at all indicates that team Tempe has the slightest reluctance to operate multiple airlines with the same paint on them. As west folks have gleefully pointed out, the APA would be calling the shots and...Oh, just nevermind...PHX is a financial powerhouse, the APA people all just love and adore you, and I'm absolutely certain that your first-name-basis-buddy Doug has your welfare solidly locked in as his foremost concern. After all; hasn't he done right by you all throughout this farce of a merger?

 

[Barrister]

What I brought has 175,000 valuable reasons why the furloughed scab wants to steal my position.

In the future, my position will carry even more "reasons" why I am not letting the east scabs steal my position.

Oh, and Nic put me behind hundreds of east pilots who brought considerably less "reasons" to the merger.


Further, my LOS far outweighs many who the scab union would like to have leepfrog me and my fellow West pilots in the wholesale scab operation that is usapa.


One more thing...you consistently lie in your post about the age, status, pay, longevity, and seniority of the two groups.

My 3 year old grandaughter does't whine and wail as much as you!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[cleardirect]

The dream of getting a contract from Team Tempe is such a joke! Do you realize that AWA has always had the worst pay and working conditions since 1983? Nothing has changed. Nothing will change until there is a corporate transaction. Get rid of AWA management and the industry standard contract will appear like majic. AWA has always been the lowest of the low and continues to run this airline.

Hate

Well you east pilots have had 7 years to show us how it is done. What is the hold up? How come usapa has not gotten something out of Tempe? You say it was just the west pilots.

We have had 2 contract. The first coming out of BK the second restricted by ATSB loan. Our contract was amendable in 2009. You guys have been on LOA 93 since 2003 coming up on 10 years of BK worst contract in the industry. Soon the east will pass the west for having the longest worse pay and benefits ever. Enjoy that B scale.

 

[Hate2fly]

Clear,
Your west contract sucks! You west guys are the only people on earth that think it's industry leading. You accepted employment with a dirt bag outfit. Nothing has changed it is still a dirt bag outfit.
Hate

 

[EastUS1]

Soon the east will pass the west for having the longest worse pay and benefits ever.

LOL, Well..."Nyaah, Nyaah!" to you too! 😉 Be of good cheer though, since you still hold rightful claim to the title of "the longest worse pay and benefits ever" and a great many/most out east enjoyed much higher pay for many years than you may yet ever see.

Sigh!....Shall we all gather together at the ritual campfire now, sing a round or two of Kumbaya, and discuss the fantastic "unity" that could magically and instantly be achieved by accepting the nic insanity? 😉

 

[Pi brat]

Thanks, but I disagree. Our union has been doing everything it can to cause delay in getting a new contract. I love the fact they blame Parker when they're the ones that have given him reason after reason not to bargain. Must be nice to have so many scape goats. Besides, I'm not saying there wouldn’t be pay parity, I'm just saying if you guys don't want to negotiate in good faith, let someone else.

Would I like to have four stripes again one day? Yeah, I'd like having the responsibility again, but not for FO wages. Could we get Delta rates? Highly unlikely, but C'mon FO narrowbody rates better than our widebody captain rates, that's embarrassing.

Well, I've got to go. Wish I could say I was walking down to the lake to go swimming or buming, but the truth is the wife took the kids to visit a friend and I have to go do some toy pick up and house cleaning. Can't afford a house keeper B)

Bean

I disagree with the premise that they have done everything to nit get a contract. The addington and then the DJ have held it up. Neither side is yet willing to give in on the nic so nothing else really matters.

If the west would give up and rally behind USAPA we might get a contract but that isn't going to happen, is it?

 

[Pi brat]

Join CM's pilotaction yahoo group and you'll see how many East pilots think and post like me on a regular basis. I'll even recommend you.

How many East pilots are not USAPA members and how many of those support USAPA?

Shouldn't you be pool side or by the shore instead of on the computer today?

I was on there but couldn't stand being nauseated everyday. How many post on there on a regular basis? A good sample of our group? Why are they not doing anything about it?

 

[Pi brat]

No, it doesn't look like staffing for more planes. Just look at the last bid and the extra staffing on the 190 - was that for new planes and if so where are they? The 190 has been overstaffed on every bid this year - where are the new planes such overstaffing was for?

Retireements start again in December, which will finally bring attrition. In January someone will have to fly the schedule that those retiring in Dec/Jan would have flown. Being overstaffed on the bottom positions creates the pool to fill positions as pilots move up because of attrition, without the 190 being understaffed itself. Remember, it takes longer for a new hire to be on the line than to train a 190 captain to be a 76I FO, so more lead time is needed when replacements for attrition mean filling the bottom jobs first - the 190's.

So take your "perfect example" and shove it where all the bs comes from...

Jim

The last 2 bids have been consistent with 80 positions with only 48 blocks. So that looks like some parked in the cheap seats for quick training, but on this bid it jumped more than 25% to 105 for 50 blocks. The last few bids have had 1 or 2 Capt vacancies, this one 25.

You completely ignored my point that resource planning does not help us.

It really gets you when you're questioned, doesn't it jumbo. You are used to your other Internet buddies bowing to your greatness. Some of us know better.

 

[Pi brat]

Seems to me most on the west would be happy for USAPA to negotiate a reasonable contract, section 22 aside. If it passes with the NIC, great then the legal battles would be over. If it passes with something other than the NIC, that just hastens the trip back to court to challenge USAPA on DFR II with an unquestionably ripe triggering event. Either way the log jam gets cleared and the process moves along. IMO the east is the only group that is happy to see separate ops continuing indefinitely. Only a merger or a ruling from Silver putting an end to the delay with USAPA at the helm. Interestingly, both of those actions would be the result of the Company taking steps to attain a new contract, not USAPA. That should speak volumes as to the odds USAPA leadership places on getting a contract that doesn't contain the NIC one way or the other.

No ####. You get what you want or back to court. What's new?

 

[Pi brat]

You brought a chapter 7 airline and 1879 FURLOUGHEES. I'd love nothing more than for you to keep what you brought.

Wrong again. US was not in ch 7. Do you intentionally exaggerate or are you just that ignorant?

 

[Metroyet]

No ####. You get what you want or back to court. What's new?

That's what happens when one keeps violating the law. Get used to it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

No ####. You get what you want or back to court. What's new?

Nothing new, just a point of clarification that the west group would not in fact prefer to have USAPA continue a delay rather than getting on with a JCBA, even if that contract didn't contain the NIC. Seems to me that west pilots want this wrapped up, with or without a definitive ruling from the court which would put an end to all legal challenges.

All USAPA has ever done is move the process backwards to get the pilots further away from a negotiated contract; it never makes any meaningful progress towards a JCBA and they leap at every opportunity to cause a further delay to obtaining a final resolution. West pilots have little to fear in letting a court rule on the merits of their claim that USAPA would be in violation of it's DFR if the NIC isn't implemented. On the contrary, the obligation to implement the NIC pursuant to its DFR is the one question USAPA runs from at every turn. Any guesses why?

 

[Fly22]

I have and as usual your argument misses an essential point, which isn 't surprising since that point undermines your entire argument...

Every west pilot, just as every east pilot, brought a seniority number which ranked him/her among his peers in the west or east as the case may be. You would like to see the west lose their position among the combined group - their seniority - so that your east peers can gain. All the west wants is for everyone, east and west, to maintain the position among the combined group that they had among their own group at the time of the merger. Your preference is to give the west a lower position while giving the east a higher position. Nothing but stealing from the west to give to the east. But that's been your preference all along, to make up east pilot's lackluster careers by taking from the west. You just try to make robbing Peter to pay Paul sound better by wrapping it in "principle" ribbons and "pay your dues, sonny" bows.

Jim

Jim,

I have read this forum for a long time, and I have a question: Is relative position (in your opinion) the only "fair" way to integrate two pilot groups? It certainly seems obvious that you feel so, but I wanted to check.

Thanks,

Fly