June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

And it's quite obvious that the Niclau, like everything else from ALPA, is binding on us. That also is not in question and we can't pick and choose.

Within the 9th's ruling/comments/etc; exactly what portion can any reference to see any such citation?

 

[fifidriver]

In your best "wet dream", you aren't worth being so much as a chock for any aircraft he ever flew. As for me? = I am out on a short medical at present, and you certainly won't see preponderous postings such as you make incessantly when I'm back in a few weeks. After all, one does need to pay some attention in order to actually fly a plane, and there's the little issue of not being able to spend supposed time aloft typing and transmitting pure BS.

Don't be too quick to canonize "Sully", it could significantly undermine your credibility. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with some of the inflight parameters and flight deck operational details of US1549, specifically: AT operation, AT engagement, TL position, AC speed, and N speeds of the left engine, to name a few.
It is my personal belief that "Sully" retired to avoid embarassment.

To another subject, I believe that it is critical to consider the audience that Mr. Kirby was addressing, and his agenda when excerpting pertinent or non-pertinent statements from his dialogue. A sort of "tell them what they want to hear" could easily turn into another inviting "straw to grasp".

Cheers!

 

[EastUS1]

Don't be too quick to canonize "Sully", it could significantly undermine your credibility.


It is my personal belief that "Sully" retired to avoid embarassment.

I first met the man back in PSA times. A better person to have in times of operational "trouble" couldn't be found anywhere. We were all VERY fortunate to have his like as the "poster boy" for this operation. YOU on the other hand, now demonstrate yourself as utterly pathetic, and completely full of Sh-t with the sadly typical "westie" attempted demonizing of the man.

"It is my personal belief that "Sully" retired to avoid embarassment." Well THAT certainly seems "reasonable" for a person granted heroic status by the entire nation, nay, entire world...Sigh!....Do you, for even a nanosecond, actually believe your own twisted, poisonous BS?....Words just fail me here.....

PS: I"m certain that the entire world is just all ears as to hear how YOU would done everything so much "better"....We're all waiting with bated breath....so go ahead and tell us....."Ace" 😉 For juss' po' liddle ole me?..I'm glad I didn't have that situation to deal with.

 

[Move2CLT]

So....you must now fervently pray that they lie awake in bed at night, uncontrollably shaking and completely consumed with dire dread of the mighty AOL's awesome "power" to produce litigation....I'm not yet so sure that's truly the case here...I guess only time will tell.

They sure seem to be taking it seriously. If they didn't, you'd have your DOH by now.

Instead they reaffirmed the Nic in court.

 

[fifidriver]

I first met the man back in PSA times. A better person to have in times of operational "trouble" couldn't be found anywhere. We were all VERY fortunate to have his like as the "poster boy" for this operation. YOU on the other hand, now demonstrate yourself as utterly pathetic, and completely full of Sh-t with the sadly typical "westie" attempted demonizing of the man.

"It is my personal belief that "Sully" retired to avoid embarassment." Well THAT certainly seems "reasonable" for a person granted heroic status by the entire nation, nay, entire world...Sigh!....Do you, for even a nanosecond, actually believe your own twisted, poisonous BS?....Words just fail me here.....

I recommend that you analyze the accident sequence for yourself.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

A Over the past few U-Turns, we’ve noticed a change in the tone of comments we’ve received. Maybe the reality of what we are up against is finally sinking in. Some accused us of taking the quotes from the Freund rebuttal out of context. We didn’t. We’ve had requests for copies of Jeff Freund’s actual East Vs West court documents. The file is too big to be directly cut and pasted. We can forward it in a scanned PDF-ZIP/Scan format. Just email us. Remember, we have no website, no budget and receive no donations. Maybe someone will paste it as an attachment on the AWAPPA web board for all to view. We would do it ourselves, but we’ve all been banned from the AWAPPA web board since May.



We have also received additional comments on what happened at Wye River from both sides. While our initial reporting appears to be correct and consistent with the latest accounts, it was incomplete. Here’s additional information from both sides.



According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement. He was gone on Day Two. We won’t address his motivation for leaving.

As Jeff Freund observed in his rebuttal to the East MEC lawsuit, the NIC was not in stone. And the loss of ALPA put it in real trouble. At least ALPA had the obligation, through the ALPA Merger Policy, to attempt to get the company to use the NIC Award.



ALPA’s lawyers knew the list was negotiable, but they never told either rank and file. We attended last summer’s ALPA road shows in PHX, starring Paul Rice and a cast of ALPA attorneys. Did ALPA ever hint that the NIC was negotiable? We believe it was for fear of fanning the flames and drawing more support for USAPA that Herndon kept that from us. They did tell all the Wye River attendees the reality. One side listened, the other didn’t.



In last summer’s East Vs West lawsuit, the East used ALPA DUES MONEY and an ALPA-Approved attorney, Roland Wilder, to pursue the case. As far as we can determine, we had to use our own Merger Fund money to defend ourselves. Thanks for choosing sides, ALPA! In the likely event that the NIC will be trashed in a single contract, it will be our own voluntary contributions that will have to be raised for a DFR lawsuit. USAPA expects it, so we shouldn’t disappoint them. This could be an extremely costly effort that could drag on for years. U-Turn is not discouraging filing a DFR, and we need closure.



Jeff Freund is a top-notch lawyer. We have no doubt that he told our MEC the truth about how negotiable the NIC really was. The question is: why didn’t CJ, Bendett, et al, listen? We figure that they either didn’t believe him or after all their hairy-chested resolutions and hotlines, they were afraid to back down. What good are attorneys if you don’t take their advice?



There is one other possibility. We mentioned it in a previous U-Turn. Our union leaders believed that the USAPA vote would be close (razor’s edge, to quote one of them) and that it was worth holding out and rolling the dice, figuring that if ALPA survived, so would the NIC. Too bad ALPA didn’t explain the importance of the 30% of East pilots who refused to participate in the Wilson Polling.



We now have a better picture what the East MEC had on the table: an 8 year fence, furloughs by longevity (LOS), MDA time not counting for longevity, Dave O’Dell having 400 pilots below him, and the Nic surviving as THE LIST. Yes, the East offered the NIC. They just wanted to protect their retirement attrition, which stalled by the change in Age-60. Looking back, that offer must look like a home run to any West pilot right now, but last February the EAST MEC and ALPA couldn’t get to first base with it.



Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything…..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that.



U-Turn


BLAST FROM THE PAST? MORE LIKE PROPHECY! MM!

 

[EastUS1]

I recommend that you analyze the accident sequence for yourself.

And I "recommend" that you shut your smarmy mouth, since you weren't there.....

"I'm certain that the entire world is just all ears as to hear how YOU would done everything so much "better"....We're all waiting with bated breath....so go ahead and tell us....."Ace" 😉 For juss' po' liddle ole me?..I'm glad I didn't have that situation to deal with."

...Still waiting on how YOU would have handled it all so much better...."Ace" 😉 Consider that a brief pass for the earlier suggestion to just shut your smarmy mouth, and..for the sake of "enlightenment" please DO share your 'wisdom" and "expertise" on EXACTLY what "thought" processes would have, by warranty, been involved, and exactly what YOU would have done differently....Don't be shy now...the obvious jackass thing is already out of the bag 😉

 

[Black Swan]

Don't be too quick to canonize "Sully", it could significantly undermine your credibility. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with some of the inflight parameters and flight deck operational details of US1549, specifically: AT operation, AT engagement, TL position, AC speed, and N speeds of the left engine, to name a few.
It is my personal belief that "Sully" retired to avoid embarassment.

To another subject, I believe that it is critical to consider the audience that Mr. Kirby was addressing, and his agenda when excerpting pertinent or non-pertinent statements from his dialogue. A sort of "tell them what they want to hear" could easily turn into another inviting "straw to grasp".

Cheers!

I guess the NTSB report was a fabrication also. Unbelievable. Between the denial of the legal system and the re write of the NTSB, you are unbelievable.

 

[Freighterguynow]

You need to check your facts. Besides if usapa tries to present anything other than the Nicolau list the whole process comes to a halt with an injunction.

You might want to ask Marty about the chance of an injunction of any kind in a Federal Arbitration which, by it's nature, is to move the process along as rapidly as possible.

Keep hoping though

 

[fatherabraham]

You are embarrassing us with these kind of posts.

DCA,

NYC is a phl pilot and WE would give your kind some choice words at any Phl council meeting. Don't believe me, come and verbally state any of your recent post.
I note you didn't bother to comment on my thoughts on DCA representation.
I bet Spike / Mike G has laid it out for them. Is that where your beef arises?
Btw......you do not speak for me......got it! Dump the US verbiage .

FA

 

[luvthe9]

They sure seem to be taking it seriously. If they didn't, you'd have your DOH by now.

Instead they reaffirmed the Nic in court.

When is the Move, Move? This Kirby statement has got to be getting to you. I know it hurts to have your own pres. re affirm the death of the Nic. Ouch!

 

[fifidriver]

I first met the man back in PSA times. A better person to have in times of operational "trouble" couldn't be found anywhere. We were all VERY fortunate to have his like as the "poster boy" for this operation. YOU on the other hand, now demonstrate yourself as utterly pathetic, and completely full of Sh-t with the sadly typical "westie" attempted demonizing of the man.

"It is my personal belief that "Sully" retired to avoid embarassment." Well THAT certainly seems "reasonable" for a person granted heroic status by the entire nation, nay, entire world...Sigh!....Do you, for even a nanosecond, actually believe your own twisted, poisonous BS?....Words just fail me here.....

PS: I"m certain that the entire world is just all ears as to hear how YOU would done everything so much "better"....We're all waiting with bated breath....so go ahead and tell us....."Ace" 😉 For juss' po' liddle ole me?..I'm glad I didn't have that situation to deal with.

"Easy there, Big Shooter..."

First; I believe that "Ace" is an East '88 hire, (fox alpha), who still labors vaingloriously in a right seat somewhere ever coveting your fourth stripe, and second; I would not want to be put in that position for love or money. I would likely have "screwed the pooch" to the same extent or worse. I do believe however, that the issue is not so much pilot performance, as it is a system ergonomics or A/C - crew interface problem. I strongly believe that a Boeing would have landed on concrete.

 

[Black Swan]

I dont know where you get your information from but there is absolutely nothing that prevents Parker from submitting the Niclau. You point isn't accepted even with the MC and you can call them to verify all this. And you also fail to post the "unquestionably ripe" portion of the opinion. You seem to conveniently leave that out. And, more recently, the company's testimony in the DJ verifying the Niclau doesn't bode well for us. And it's quite obvious that the Niclau, like everything else from ALPA, is binding on us. That also is not in question and we can't pick and choose.

Hey 319, the quotes I am giving you are from the 9th Court of Appeals San Francisco. I don't give a crap what your bud Gary says. The court says this. And you can tell me USAPA is bound to it till hell freezes over. The court says you don't know what you are talking about. They also clearly state the west might not be damaged, whatever the final product is. You buy off on all their crying about harm. They haven't been harmed yet, they may never be. It is a very relative issue to prove.

"http://www.ca9.uscou...04/09-16564.pdf.

 

[EastUS1]

I strongly believe that a Boeing would have landed on concrete.

I've wondered a bit about that as well. I've always been a huge fan of having fairly direct, physical linkage between throttles and thrust, regardless of engine "health"...but we aren't discussing just what complete POS/garbage airbus puts out and laughably calls "aircraft" here.....You slammed a man for his performance in a very dire scenario, who's immediate and subsequent actions resulted in all involved retaining a pulse and without substantial injuries. Could one "play games" in simulators, sans any threats, sans any time constraints, and without the slightest possible real concern for anything...much less mutal survival, and possibly come out "better" for their quarters spent in the video game?..Maybe...So what?....You weren't there....Period!

 

[Black Swan]

Here is another GEM for you 319. If Parker submits it, he is then liable for a massive suit and ANOTHER intervention by the 9th on an Arizona individual who just can't seem to grasp the concept of collective bargaining. Parker is smarter than you realize on this issue. The Kirby statement affirms that fact.




" that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA,
is binding on USAPA." 9th Court of Appeals SF


The dissent doesn't get it, and they are in the MINORITY, aka not enough horsepower to make the rule stick.....