June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Not ripe yet and the kind of erased you are talking about are two different things. I get it that the list, short of an AMR merger, has to be voted in by the east/west, which will not happen if the Nic is included. Do you understand that USAPA, if they want to submit a list other than the Nic, have to come up with a list that does not harm the west. DOH harms the west, everyone sees that, except the east, which............wait for it........gets a huge windfall from DOH.
Bean

No, I honestly feel the West has to be treated fairly in all of this. And there is certainly a case to be made for harm. I just don't know what constitutes harm, and these days just having a job means you are not harmed. The 9th absolutely warned about the harm, but as you addressed, said the Nicolau might never be ratified. It is a two issue ruling. They absolutely recognized that USAPA is a successor union, and not bound by ALPA. That was also the clear feeling of Baptiste and Wilder, who know this stuff inside out.
Looking at the Delta rates, we all need to be mindful that we need to get something much better than the first offer in the LCC pursuit of AA. 171 or so an hr is just not nearly enough. Regards.

 

[algflyr]

....
Do you understand that USAPA, if they want to submit a list other than the Nic, have to come up with a list that does not harm the west. DOH harms the west, everyone sees that, except the east, which............wait for it........gets a huge windfall from DOH.
Bean

I think if a DOH list, or any list that in NOT the Nic, is used for SLI with American, and the new CBA gives the West pilots huge raises and some QOL improvements as well as fencing in PHX so all PHX attrition is captured by West pilots... How will they say they were harmed??

 

[algflyr]

I wonder what the company thinks about which list can be used... from an article out today:


CHARLOTTE, N.C. (TheStreet) --US Airways(LCC)President Scott Kirby said a merger withAMR(AAMRQ.PK)would resolve the pilot seniority battle that still simmers following the 2005 merger between US Airways and America West.
"The solution to that issue is if we are able to get this deal done," Kirby said Thursday, speaking at the Bank of America/Merrill Lynch investor conference in Boston. "I think this is the way out of the box (because) this is a way to have a fresh beginning."

The whole article link : here

 

[Piedmont1984]

No, I honestly feel the West has to be treated fairly in all of this. And there is certainly a case to be made for harm. I just don't know what constitutes harm, and these days just having a job means you are not harmed. The 9th absolutely warned about the harm, but as you addressed, said the Nicolau might never be ratified. It is a two issue ruling. They absolutely recognized that USAPA is a successor union, and not bound by ALPA. That was also the clear feeling of Baptiste and Wilder, who know this stuff inside out.
Looking at the Delta rates, we all need to be mindful that we need to get something much better than the first offer in the LCC pursuit of AA. 171 or so an hr is just not nearly enough. Regards.

Unless our CURRENT leadership, with STRONG BPR support quickly develops a cooperative relationship with APA - then if APA is satisfied with 171/hour will we resort to wearing GREEN lanyards this time, saying "Money Matters" or "I'm not onboard"?

So what if we aren't bound by ALPA and what if it doesn't have to be the Nic? The DFR still lingers for the next CBA. What do you think the path of least resistance will be for APA? This is an honest question (unlike my first one).

 

[nycbusdriver]

I have a question for my east colleagues. Let’s say we merge with AMR, and like the APA has implied seniority goes to arbitration. What if, hold on I know it is hard to fathom, but what if a neutral arbitrator comes back with a list that is not DOH. Is the east going to have another melt down, or are we going to move on?

Bean

I suspect we will move on. It's not the ALPA bull crap, and there would be no recourse. A McCaskill Bond arbitration has the weight of federal law, not merely union policy.

However, if the company tried to insert the Nicolau list into the arbitration, expect some fireworks in the courtroom quite promptly.

 

[mrbreeze]

I suspect we will move on. It's not the ALPA bull crap, and there would be no recourse. A McCaskill Bond arbitration has the weight of federal law, not merely union policy.

However, if the company tried to insert the Nicolau list into the arbitration, expect some fireworks in the courtroom quite promptly.

My thoughts exactly.

breeze

 

[cleardirect]

....Pretty much covers the "We'll sue everybody in the whole world if we don't get our nic....Waaaah! " as well... 😉

You don't see the difference between protecting our right in a court of law and thugs threatening bodily harm?

Seriously??????

 

[cleardirect]

Here you go clear and direct........



Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. 9th court of appeals


The court itself said EVEN UNDER THE DISTRICT COURTS INJUNCTION IT IS DOUBTFUL...... GET IT? THE COURT, THE ONE THAT ERASED WAKE, THAT ONE, SAID THIS.

Whatever! Uncertain that does not mean that it would for sure not happen.

Now if you are done deflecting the question how about you go look up what the district court had to say about ALPA and their ability to abandon the Nicolau award. You know as the ninth circuit pointed out.

Now go away until your finish your homework.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I suspect we will move on. It's not the ALPA bull crap, and there would be no recourse. A McCaskill Bond arbitration has the weight of federal law, not merely union policy.

However, if the company tried to insert the Nicolau list into the arbitration, expect some fireworks in the courtroom quite promptly.

The APA outnumbers you. If they are good with it, sue away, firework away. I'd like to see how far you get. In my opinion, the company should have had the east sueing from the start, as opposed to the west. But, I bet they wouldn't have gotten their cheap wages for as long, and they probably knew that.

I submit what happened post Nic had more to do with superior numbers and what that bought you than it did with any distinction in types of arbitrations.

 

[KTM300]

I believe it is what Kirby then said that indicates what the company's position is;


As for the seniority issue, Kirby said what Dave Bates, president of the Allied Pilots Association, already has said: The 2007 McCaskill-Bond statute creates a path to a resolution because it mandates binding arbitration.
"Our union and APA will have a joint contract and we will have that on the day we close the merger," Kirby said. "Then more than likely, seniority will go through the process, go through arbitration."

In other words, Kirby and Parker don't believe that the nic is binding!

 

[cleardirect]

Honestly, when are you guys going to figure out that the Wake trial was erased? It is absolutely ridiculous how you keep referring to Addington. Unbelievable.

Read the filings. all three parties have referenced the Addington trial. It did not get erased like usapa tried to say. Look in Westlaw you will find it right there. They did not remove from the books.

 

[cleardirect]

I believe it is what Kirby then said that indicates what the company's position is;


As for the seniority issue, Kirby said what Dave Bates, president of the Allied Pilots Association, already has said: The 2007 McCaskill-Bond statute creates a path to a resolution because it mandates binding arbitration.
"Our union and APA will have a joint contract and we will have that on the day we close the merger," Kirby said. "Then more than likely, seniority will go through the process, go through arbitration."

In other words, Kirby and Parker don't believe that the nic is binding!

It does not matter what Parker or Kirby say in a crew news or the press. If matter what the lawyers say in court.

What the company lawyers have told the judge is the Nicolau is final and binding and they accepted the list because they had to, it is part of the T/A.

Parker could walk into a crew news tomorrow and say that he was going to cut everyones pay rate to $4 an hour. It means nothing.

 

[algflyr]

What the company lawyers have told the judge is the Nicolau is final and binding and they accepted the list because they had to, it is part of the T/A.

And they know that TA clearly spells out how the Nic will be implemented... Those conditions will never happen if we merge with AMR... The Nic is not our official seniority list...

 

[algflyr]

However, if the company tried to insert the Nicolau list into the arbitration, expect some fireworks in the courtroom quite promptly.

I don't think it's the company that provides the seniority list for an integration. It will be USAPA providing the list to be used. That is one reason we are in this mess to begin with, ALPA gave the arbitrator in the East/West SLI a flawed East seniority list. It was ALPA that provided the East list, not the company... Just saying... 🙂

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think it's the company that provides the seniority list for an integration. It will be USAPA providing the list to be used. That is one reason we are in this mess to begin with, ALPA gave the arbitrator in the East/West SLI a flawed East seniority list. It was ALPA that provided the East list, not the company... Just saying... 🙂

Wrong again. The company keeps the official list not the union. The union certifies it but the company gives them the starting point for protests..

The MDA grievance loss for usapa proves that it was not a flawed list. It proves that the MDA guys were indeed furloughed. Nothing wrong with the list.