June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

Wrong again about me waiting for the great pumpkin, but why take the time to listen when can slam everyone that used to share a cockpit with you, right.

Make sure your. 44 doesn't jam.

Don't sweat him. He's really a teddy bear at heart. Buy him the first round and he will melt like putty. Pretty soon he'll be slurring "I love you guys, man. You all rock! You guys are my hero. Who else could kick ALPA's useless arses off the property but you?! Can I drink with use guys more often?"

 

[EastUS1]

Looks like a military briefing to me..
Jim

My only surprise is that you didn't immediately mistake it for a "military cockpit" as well. 😉

Be careful out there with all those bears 😉

 

[Pi brat]

What you never explain is how does a junior west FO that continues to be a junior FO using the Nicolau jump ahead of someone?

Yes clear, it has been explained many times. What the Nic award does in many case is put many younger guys in front of many older guys and the effect moving forward is that the bottom part of the west list would gain relative seniority much more rapidly going forward and end up at a much better position while the bottom part of the east list movement would slow and end up at a much worse position. That's is what I believe most people mean. Look at EF, if the Nic were implemented to day he would get something like a 15% point gain over night. A lot of west guys think that is fair because it only mattered where you were when the list was put together, not moving forward. Oh no, that's not right because the formerly furloughed east guys didn't get put there they were at Nicolau's starting point, he moved them back 2 years earlier.

 

[cleardirect]

Yes clear, it has been explained many times. What the Nic award does in many case is put many younger guys in front of many older guys and the effect moving forward is that the bottom part of the west list would gain relative seniority much more rapidly going forward and end up at a much better position while the bottom part of the east list movement would slow and end up at a much worse position. That's is what I believe most people mean. Look at EF, if the Nic were implemented to day he would get something like a 15% point gain over night. A lot of west guys think that is fair because it only mattered where you were when the list was put together, not moving forward. Oh no, that's not right because the formerly furloughed east guys didn't get put there they were at Nicolau's starting point, he moved them back 2 years earlier.

So your entire argument come down to the east is older therefore you deserve more. Try that argument with APA. Oh that's right TWA already tried that and see where it got them.

I see. Can you point to any integration that took age into account? You do know that the average age difference between the east and west is les then 5 years right.

You do know it is called a PID right. The only facts the any arbitrator has are the ones in front of him not where people might be. He does not look 5-10-15 years into the future. When Colello was hired 17 years prior was it predicted that he would be furloughed?

 

[EastUS1]

When Colello was hired 17 years prior was it predicted that he would be furloughed?

Speaking of which; kindly give all an update on how your current, personal visions and fantasies actually worked out for you after 17 more years or so 😉 You might be well off or not. The one thing that can be promised is that the future will be considerably different from whatever you now imagine.

cleardirect: "The only facts the any arbitrator has are the ones in front of him not where people might be." Indeed, and the same is true of any tribal shamans/soothsayers/oracles/traveling gypsy fortune tellers/tarot card readers/nut jobs on the street holding up "The End is Near" signs/etc....which "might"...just "possibly", not argue favorably for arbitration being the most reasonable way to go, whenever attempting to establish anyone's current or future "worth".......?

 

[traderjake]

Still dreaming of jumping ahead of everybody, wait your turn now!!!!

Uncle "luvthe9" Fester

 

[traderjake]

What the Nic award does in many case is put many younger guys in front of many older guys and the effect moving forward is that the bottom part of the west list would gain relative seniority much more rapidly going forward and end up at a much better position while the bottom part of the east list movement would slow and end up at a much worse position.

So Nicolau was suppose to integrate the change in seniority and not the actual seniority?

I believe Nicolau should have taken attrition into consideration and somehow made the upgrades proportional to the retirements. Did we ever ask him to do that? Even after he told us to "seriously reconsider our position"? How can we complain about not getting something we didn't ask for?

It was an arbitration, not a negotiation. He wasn't going to split the baby.

 

[cleardirect]

Speaking of which; kindly give all an update on how your current, personal visions and fantasies actually worked out for you after 17 more years or so 😉 You might be well off or not. The one thing that can be promised is that the future will be considerably different from whatever you now imagine.

cleardirect: "The only facts the any arbitrator has are the ones in front of him not where people might be." Indeed, and the same is true of any tribal shamans/soothsayers/oracles/traveling gypsy fortune tellers/tarot card readers/nut jobs on the street holding up "The End is Near" signs/etc....which "might"...just "possibly", not argue favorably for arbitration being the most reasonable way to go, whenever attempting to establish anyone's current or future "worth".......?

Well-let's just change the entire way we settle dispute because you don't like it.

There it is again that all about meeeeee attitude.

BTW. No oracle required if you just look at the facts in front of you today not 5-10-15 years down the road.

 

[cleardirect]

So Nicolau was suppose to integrate the change in seniority and not the actual seniority?

I believe Nicolau should have taken attrition into consideration and somehow made the upgrades proportional to the retirements. Did we ever ask him to do that? Even after he told us to "seriously reconsider our position"? How can we complain about not getting something we didn't ask for?

It was an arbitration, not a negotiation. He wasn't going to split the baby.

No what the east wants is what they think their seniority could be 5-10-15 years down the road. Because they actually got what their actual seniority was. Furloughed has no seniority on an active list. A captain remained a captain.

 

[Pi brat]

So your entire argument come down to the east is older therefore you deserve more. Try that argument with APA. Oh that's right TWA already tried that and see where it got them.

I see. Can you point to any integration that took age into account? You do know that the average age difference between the east and west is les then 5 years right.

You do know it is called a PID right. The only facts the any arbitrator has are the ones in front of him not where people might be. He does not look 5-10-15 years into the future. When Colello was hired 17 years prior was it predicted that he would be furloughed?

Pan Am /National. Aquagreen put some good info on here about 6to years ago.

 

[Pi brat]

So Nicolau was suppose to integrate the change in seniority and not the actual seniority?

I believe Nicolau should have taken attrition into consideration and somehow made the upgrades proportional to the retirements. Did we ever ask him to do that? Even after he told us to "seriously reconsider our position"? How can we complain about not getting something we didn't ask for?

It was an arbitration, not a negotiation. He wasn't going to split the baby.

Exactly, the time for negotiation was over, why did he even ask again for a change in position?

Do you remember what the Pan Am national arbitrator said about age disparity and why he changed methods for part of the list? I will try to find it and repost.

 

[traderjake]

Do you remember what the Pan Am national arbitrator said about age disparity and why he changed methods for part of the list? I will try to find it and repost.

No, the only thing I know about that merger is that my father stayed on furlough with Pan Am and our neighbor who was a National Captain lost his job when the company went out of business.

 

[luvthe9]

No, the only thing I know about that merger is that my father stayed on furlough with Pan Am and our neighbor who was a National Captain lost his job when the company went out of business.

You hurt my feelings Traitorjake. And that was one of my favorite shows. At least I know who he is. Some of the West kids who were raised in shopping malls have no idea.

 

[traderjake]

You hurt my feelings Traitorjake. And that was one of my favorite shows.

Don't feel bad, he's a lovable chartacter, just a little out of touch with reality.

 

[luvthe9]

http://www.google.co...Q9QEwBA&dur=308


Trader, I always thought you resembled this guy........