June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[fatherabraham]

FA, the west pilots actually do have clout with their DFR potential. So much so that the company was forced to file a DJ. And the admission by the company in testimony that the Niclau is the accepted list makes me think the DJ has no chance of going out way. The only group that has no leverage is us. How would we stop the Niclau if that's what the company said we had to use because of Silvers ruling? Answer is we couldn't. Unless you have another thought? Am I being a weak sister or realist again?

1984,

Unlike many, I too only have a fuzzy crystal ball.
That said, here's the big pic I see:

1- Nic could remain dead via :

A-Silver
B-9th again
C-APA influence
D- time makes it moot etc.

2- Nic gets implemented:

A- final court decision all agree on
B-majority acquiesce to use of Nic

I only have a single vote but I damn sure will not enable/vote # 2 !
Are you ready for # 2 ?

Only you can answer weak sis Q. I'm not God.


FA

 

[Move2CLT]

At least we had careers to f'up. We didn't get hired by the lowest common denominator and call it a career....ore even a job. Remember, we have had compensation in the gutter for less than ten years. Yours was a crap heap from the git-go and never got anywhere near where we were for decades.

Where's your compensation now?

And let's dollar-cost-average it and include non-economic items as well.

You guys are much worse off.

Gutter would be a step up for you.

And I agree with you - you guys f'ed up your careers really good. Congrats on admitting to that.

 

[dca319]

1984,

Unlike many, I too only have a fuzzy crystal ball.
That said, here's the big pic I see:

1- Nic could remain dead via :

A-Silver
B-9th again
C-APA influence
D- time makes it moot etc.

2- Nic gets implemented:

A- final court decision all agree on
B-majority acquiesce to use of Nic

I only have a single vote but I damn sure will not enable/vote # 2 !
Are you ready for # 2 ?

Only you can answer weak sis Q. I'm not God.


FA

FA I assume you're addressing me with your post. Looking over your first list, the chances of a favorable legal decision going our way are slim to none. This comes from a member of the BPR. The APA has no influence regarding our submission and I've been told Doug and the APA will not allow this to big down over the Niclau. And as for time, this merger will end the delay tactic. I personally am not going to continue with our current situation. Your #2 it seems is inevitable. I for one, among many others, am ready to accept the Nic, get a new contract and put this behind me.

 

[EastUS1]

When they figure out how to actually represent all 5400 pilots, and not just the 3400 east pilots still cryin over the Nic, they will get their say.

Meanwhile, the West has positioned itself to actually have a say about the state of things going forward.

".... they will get their say" Ummm..yeah...sure thing. All that's needed is but to engage the west "powerhouse" of under 2,000 to tip the scales completely.

" Meanwhile, the West has positioned itself to actually have a say about the state of things going forward."
While the attendant laughter's honestly appreciated....well....be serious, at least once in awhile 😉

 

[BoeingBoy]

" Meanwhile, the West has positioned itself to actually have a say about the state of things going forward."
While the attendant laughter's honestly appreciated....well....be serious, at least once in awhile 😉

So, you don't think that Parker fears a hybrid DFR suit slowing down his merger train more than he fears USAPA? Especially after essentially taking the west's side in the seniority battle with comments in the company's DJ filings?

If there's a merger, USAPA will be history - DOA as many on the east have said about the Nic for so long. What's to fear from the "mighty" USAPA that's in the dustbin of failed experiments? On the other hand, a hybrid DFR suit would bring the merger to a standstill for a couple of years at least, and just the chance of that happening could derail it completely - the creditors don't care about the east/west battle over the Nic, they just want as much of their money as they can get as soon as they can get it. Delay is not in their interests...

Then there's the APA. At least the leadership seems to be going all in for a merger. They'd like the merger to happen tomorrow, not the day after tomorrow. Aside from any legal liability they'd inherit, they don't want anything delaying a merger for a couple of years. And guess who'll be representing the majority of US/AA pilots...

Unless some external event occurs which stops any merger in it's tracks, USAPA and the east are in the position of the old story about new FO's - sit on your hands, don't touch anything, don't say anything, Parker and APA will tell you what to do for the short time that may be left for you to think you can do anything else.

Jim

 

[EastUS1]

I for one, among many others, am ready to accept the Nic, get a new contract and put this behind me.

Key code words in the above = "I"... "one"....and of course....no surprise at ALL here = "me"/It's ALL about MeeeEEEE! 😉 Suit yourself (as I'm fairly certain you always do), but I'm a bit less eager to toss people I've flown with for years under the proverbial bus.

 

[dca319]

Key code words in the above = "I"... "one"....and of course....no surprise at ALL here = "me"/It's ALL about MeeeEEEE! 😉 Suit yourself (as I'm fairly certain you always do), but I'm a bit less eager to toss people I've flown with for years under the proverbial bus.

WE have been doing it to OURSELVES for a long time. And bottom line you always vote for what's best for you and your family.

 

[EastUS1]

....in the dustbin of failed experiments?

Speaking of which: How's your life treating you lately? 😉

 

[BoeingBoy]

Speaking of which: How's your life treating you lately? 😉

Must have hit a nerve if that's the best you can do...

Great, thanks for asking. In a little over a week, non-rev Gods willing, I'll be off for my annual 3 months in Alaska. The bikes, 4-wheelers, fish, guns, etc await...

I'd ask about your life, but I hate to bring the comparison to mine into the limelight...your embarrassment would then be public instead of private.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Where's your compensation now?

And let's dollar-cost-average it and include non-economic items as well.

Mine, in particular? Still better than yours.

And none of you westies will top my career earnings even if you went to the Parker APA rates tomorrow.

 

[Piedmont1984]

FA

The term sheet is now available on the USAPA website. I would say the following. A merger with AA mitigates the effects of the Nic in a number of ways.

First it dilutes things by dropping us into a bigger bowl of stew. More bases, more airplanes, more opportunities for growth. We may at long last be part of an airline which is truly too big to fail. I still remember 2003/2004. My resumes were out there, don't know about you.

Second, a good bump in pay rates now, with industry standard, at least, in the future. No more excuses from management about revenue generating limitations.

Third, an in-house union, except it would be the mother of in-house unions. One which already appears to have a cooperative relationship with managment, as well as a long history and a proven track record, but also one with real leverage if needed.

Finally, scuttle the merger, keep fighting the Nic for years to come - and you have really thrown the junior guys under the bus.

 

[nic4us]

".... they will get their say" Ummm..yeah...sure thing. All that's needed is but to engage the west "powerhouse" of under 2,000 to tip the scales completely.

" Meanwhile, the West has positioned itself to actually have a say about the state of things going forward."
While the attendant laughter's honestly appreciated....well....be serious, at least once in awhile 😉

Did not the APA already seek out West pilots for advice concerning PBS?

The threat of the hybrid DFR is about 1000% more influential than a non-existant COC clause in the LOA93 contract the company would be happy to keep the east on. Go ahead and go it alone with the 3400 east whiners. east has nada in the way of leverage.

Now, if usapa were to do the company a favor and remove the DFR threat, they just might get a seat at the table.

 

[nycbusdriver]

FA

The term sheet is now available on the USAPA website. I would say the following. A merger with AA mitigates the effects of the Nic in a number of ways.

First it dilutes things by dropping us into a bigger bowl of stew. More bases, more airplanes, more opportunities for growth. We may at long last be part of an airline which is truly too big to fail. I still remember 2003/2004. My resumes were out there, don't know about you.

Second, a good bump in pay rates now, with industry standard, at least, in the future. No more excuses from management about revenue generating limitations.

Third, an in-house union, except it would be the mother of in-house unions. One which already appears to have a cooperative relationship with managment, as well as a long history and a proven track record, but also one with real leverage if needed.

Finally, scuttle the merger, keep fighting the Nic for years to come - and you have really thrown the junior guys under the bus.

A very reasonable outlook, although I have a few reservations...

For most of the east pilots, that big pot of stew will likely be that same small portion given the promises of fences.

Also, the APA right now appears to have a good relationship with management OTHER than theirs. Their relationship with their own management? Not so good. Can they maintain the good relationship when OTHER than theirs becomes theirs? That remains to be seen. Me? If it happens, I suspect there will be "trouble in paradise" fairly quickly.

 

[BoeingBoy]

For most of the east pilots, that big pot of stew will likely be that same small portion given the promises of fences.

Even with fences through 2020, about 1500 east pilots will still be working. That's those junior guys FA and East claim that they don't want to throw under the bus. I'm sure that as they look up from the asphault those junior guys will be thanking those who "protected" them if USAPA should torpedo a merger because of the Nic....

Jim

 

[nevergiveup]

Even with fences through 2020, about 1500 east pilots will still be working. That's those junior guys FA and East claim that they don't want to throw under the bus. I'm sure that as they look up from the asphault those junior guys will be thanking those who "protected" them if USAPA should torpedo a merger because of the Nic....

Jim

I hope the west doesn't torpedo this merger with their insistence on the NIC.