June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

That's just it - the Nic doesn't torpedo anything. APA has no reason to fear it - they're already talking about relative position. The company doesn't have any reason to fear it - they've basically said that it's the official list in court filings. The Nic makes it cut and dried - some sort of relative position with the Nic and APA list - so the creditors have no fear of law suits dragging things out. Everybody wins except those die hard DOH pilots on the east who want their name at the top of the list by way of a 3-way integration and would rather stay on LOA 93 than not get that.

Jim

 

[N924PS]

I hope the west doesn't torpedo this merger with their insistence on the NIC.

I think it is highly likely East pilot's insistence on DOH will tube the deal.

Seen the AA Seniority list? They have guys hired between 1985-1991 that are fairly senior relative position and have been flying Captain for many years. No way a similar DOH AAA pilots will be slotted anywhere near them.

Might as well get a raise. If the merger happens you might be in the right seat a LONG time as those mentioned AA pilots are way younger than their DOH counterpart on the East list especially.

 

[fatherabraham]

FA, the west pilots actually do have clout with their DFR potential. So much so that the company was forced to file a DJ. And the admission by the company in testimony that the Niclau is the accepted list makes me think the DJ has no chance of going out way. The only group that has no leverage is us. How would we stop the Niclau if that's what the company said we had to use because of Silvers ruling? Answer is we couldn't. Unless you have another thought? Am I being a weak sister or realist again?

That's just it - the Nic doesn't torpedo anything. APA has no reason to fear it - they're already talking about relative position. The company doesn't have any reason to fear it - they've basically said that it's the official list in court filings. The Nic makes it cut and dried - some sort of relative position with the Nic and APA list - so the creditors have no fear of law suits dragging things out. Everybody wins except those die hard DOH pilots on the east who want their name at the top of the list by way of a 3-way integration and would rather stay on LOA 93 than not get that.

Jim

Jim,

Your past 2 post referencing myself were ur typical talking down to me with some questions thrown in. Didn't reply because the posted questions simply confused me. Perhaps it was me.
As far as above, the only reference to APA relative talk I've seen referenced the McCaskill -bond with wide body protections that insulate large #'s from potential relative harm.
It behooves APA not to take any stance on sli, they would only open up scrutiny and divisiveness at the wrong time.
We all seriously know they will do as ALL unions do to protect their own first and foremost .
If you think they will oblige the 2005 AWA FO relative status per the Nic above huge #'s of APA bretheren then it's futile chatting with you.
Have you read anywhere a statement of relative per Nic or as of NOW in 2012 ?
I think latter way more likely per my experience of human nature.
I'll repeat myself as you like to do, those diehard DOH guys u always reference where fine with fences to protect ALL and by far mostly just wanted to protect the attrition they've waited 2 decades + for.

FA

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'll repeat myself as you like to do, those diehard DOH guys u always reference where fine with fences to protect ALL and by far mostly just wanted to protect the attrition they've waited 2 decades + for.

FA

I'll address this one first since it's not merger related. Those diehard DOH guys wanted more than the attrition - that could have been protected by fences as well as the widebodies. They were the one's that insisted on nothing but DOH.and threatened to recall the MC if they didn't comply, and that was after the MC said that they would be able to protect both attrition and the widebodies. As SH is fond of saying, don't pizz on my leg and thy to convince me it's raining.

USAPA has yet to propose any C&R's that really protect the west pilots - DOH will be nothing but another name for moving backward for them as they move to what those diehard DOH guys maintain is the west's "rightful place in the line".

While you're right that APA's 1st (and only for now) function is to protect the AA pilots, the last thing AA wants is for the merger to be tied up in court for years or fall through because of that possibility. So APA has an interest in avoiding the legal system. At least one APA rep has said to AA pilots "If you're at 50% of your fleet before the merger you'll be at 50% after the merger." That sounds like some form of relative position to me, especially since it wasn't said that "fences will make sure of that."

You can wish for a 3-way based on current positions all you want, but as another saying goes "Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first." You're won't be the majority fighting a minority this time - you'll be the minority fighting a majority twice your size with APA representing you. You just better hope that APA represents you better than USAPA has represented the west...

Jim

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I hope the west doesn't torpedo this merger with their insistence on the NIC.

Yeah, how DARE they insist on the binding arbitration result that the East, the West and the Company all agreed to accept?

Seriously, the whole entitlement whining got old about 5 years ago, as did the attempt to screw up operations, the endless court battles, etc. Only good thing is, you are still on LOA 93, and Silver is going to hand your asses to you.

 

[fatherabraham]

I'll address this one first since it's not merger related. Those diehard DOH guys wanted more than the attrition - that could have been protected by fences as well as the widebodies. They were the one's that insisted on nothing but DOH.and threatened to recall the MC if they didn't comply, and that was after the MC said that they would be able to protect both attrition and the widebodies. As SH is fond of saying, don't pizz on my leg and thy to convince me it's raining.

USAPA has yet to propose any C&R's that really protect the west pilots - DOH will be nothing but another name for moving backward for them as they move to what those diehard DOH guys maintain is the west's "rightful place in the line".

While you're right that APA's 1st (and only for now) function is to protect the AA pilots, the last thing AA wants is for the merger to be tied up in court for years or fall through because of that possibility. So APA has an interest in avoiding the legal system. At least one APA rep has said to AA pilots "If you're at 50% of your fleet before the merger you'll be at 50% after the merger." That sounds like some form of relative position to me, especially since it wasn't said that "fences will make sure of that."

You can wish for a 3-way based on current positions all you want, but as another saying goes "Wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first." You're won't be the majority fighting a minority this time - you'll be the minority fighting a majority twice your size with APA representing you. You just better hope that APA represents you better than USAPA has represented the west...

Jim

Jim,

Thx for civil words.
A lot of time has passed since Nic award and frankly I just don't have the memory timeline you seem to have. My recollection is far different than yours on fairness of fences and I don't even think MC was key player in those alpa days. I think pointless to argue fence dialogue as neither of us were present at Wye and other meets.

" At least one APA rep has said to AA pilots "If you're at 50% of your fleet before the merger you'll be at 50% after the merger."

Read the same and again I seriously doubt they will place their furloughs under the bus and allow relative per Nic ( potential dfr or not ).

The final court decisions have not been made. We all can agree that's a fact.
What a BPR member/Wake/DP/SK/GH/MC or anyone else spouts is just their opinion and by nature slanted.

FA

 

[BoeingBoy]

We may be meaning different people by MC. I mean the merger committee, not Mike Cleary. What they said, and why they picked Nic who arbitrated the Shuttle merger (relative position by equipment/seat), was that DOH would be almost impossible to attain but that they were almost 100% certain that they'd be able to protect the east attrition and widebodies. That's what started the uproar for "nothing less than DOH." Wye and other meetings were pretty pointless - really nothing but ALPA's attempt to get off the Nic hook. A consensual agreement to discard the Nic was the only card ALPA had to play once the Nic award came out so they played it. Anyone expecting the west to meekly accept DOH after the Nic came out was dreaming, as was anyone thinking that the east hard-liners would settle for better protections for the west than USAPA (started and ran by hard-liners) has offered.

 

[oscarjazz]

Fun fact of the day. Under the new Delta TA, in 2015, a Delta A-320 Captain will make more than an East A-320 crew. But hey, keep this fight going about date of hire, it's paying off for you perfectly so far.

 

[prechilill]

Fun fact of the day. Under the new Delta TA, in 2015, a Delta A-320 Captain will make more than an East A-320 crew. But hey, keep this fight going about date of hire, it's paying off for you perfectly so far.

And a Delta A320 fo will make $20 an hour more than a east 320 captain. LMFAO!!!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Fun fact of the day.

Have you forgotten. Most east pilots are waiting for the LOA93 arbitrator to realize he made a mistake and give them their annual 3% raises - "if you owe them you will pay them" and all that - and for the AA pilots to bow meekly and give up their place in line to the long suffering east in a 3-way integration that staples the west to the bottom of the combined list...

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

Mine, in particular? Still better than yours.

And none of you westies will top my career earnings even if you went to the Parker APA rates tomorrow.

Wait now! Hang on, I know this one!

You have a successful side business and don't need this job so it's more like a hobby.

LMAO!

Did you guys get that script in the first day of class?

 

[Move2CLT]

Fun fact of the day. Under the new Delta TA, in 2015, a Delta A-320 Captain will make more than an East A-320 crew. But hey, keep this fight going about date of hire, it's paying off for you perfectly so far.

It's OK. They have successful side business and this flying stuff is only a hobby. And they made so much money for those few months at top pay that they could retire on that alone.

LMAO.

 

[Move2CLT]

I hope the west doesn't torpedo this merger with their insistence on the NIC.

I hope the east doesn't torpedo this merger by being, well, east.

 

[Move2CLT]

Jim,

.. those diehard DOH guys u always reference where fine with fences to protect ALL and by far mostly just wanted to protect the attrition they've waited 2 decades + for.

FA

Complete crap.

Those diehard DOH guys wanted to upgrade using west seats. With fences in place, there would have been east pilots that would not have seen the left seat before retirement. So in order to get their seats back, they would have to go through PHX to get them.

That's why the east wanted DOH with no fences. Nicolau offered more time to resolve this but the east refused.

You guys are where you're at because of your greed and you've paid for it economically.

So save your victim crap for someone that cares. Not too many do though.

 

[Move2CLT]

Jim,

Thx for civil words.
A lot of time has passed since Nic award and frankly I just don't have the memory timeline you seem to have. My recollection is far different than yours on fairness of fences and I don't even think MC was key player in those alpa days. I think pointless to argue fence dialogue as neither of us were present at Wye and other meets.

" At least one APA rep has said to AA pilots "If you're at 50% of your fleet before the merger you'll be at 50% after the merger."

Read the same and again I seriously doubt they will place their furloughs under the bus and allow relative per Nic ( potential dfr or not ).

The final court decisions have not been made. We all can agree that's a fact.
What a BPR member/Wake/DP/SK/GH/MC or anyone else spouts is just their opinion and by nature slanted.

FA

Let me refresh hour memory - you guys didn't want fences.

You want to see your fancy DOH or Nothing website you put up when this all started?

Nic only applies to our side and it will be slotted by relative seniority with APAs list.

Make peace with it now.