June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

A lot of wishful thinking "I hear this, I hear that..." from the bottom F/O West cheerleaders. Anyone who watched that crew news gets it. Parker wants his money, and the path to it is USAPA and APA in agreement. Leonidas is just a pimple on his butt. No worry at all. The Nic is done, Parker keeps telling you, but you refuse to listen. At this point, who cares.

 

[luvthe9]

Bradford didn't hurt you. Furguson did. You listened to bad advice from a greedy F/O and gave your money to a bunch of incompetent lawyers.

 

[OTTER574]

A lot of wishful thinking "I hear this, I hear that..." from the bottom F/O West cheerleaders. Anyone who watched that crew news gets it. Parker wants his money, and the path to it is USAPA and APA in agreement. Leonidas is just a pimple on his butt. No worry at all. The Nic is done, Parker keeps telling you, but you refuse to listen. At this point, who cares.

The Nic is done, that is correct luvthe9. It will be implemented with a joint contract with our company.

luvthe9, Please read the TA. Better yet, have someone read it to you and explain it to you very SLOWLY...seems you're lacking in certain basic skills.

OTTER

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry Otter, you are misunderstanding of the nic. The nic is not federal law, Nicolau was a federal arbitrator, he was not arbitrating a federal issue within alpa's seniority integrations...

Federal arbitrations are not apealable, that was explained to the west on the 16th....thats why macaskil-bond is not appealable....


I believe APA will accept DOH to protect there 85-90 hires, and there furloughees.

With a 7 year fence (already agreed to in APA term sheet with Usairways) 2000-2500 pilots from Usairways are gone by the end of fence, leaving 2000 with an nominal DOH arnd 90-2005. That meshes in well behind there 85-90 hires (approx 4000 pilots) and protects there furloughee's (when they get recalled, no bump or flush, so west pilots and 3rd listers are job protected)

If that sounds to farfetched, try to,put yourself in there shoes, what would you do, and nobody geats any different treatment. All the same, equally and fair. Everyone gets what they got when they were hired.

Similar to SWA/Airtran, there will not be a need to go to Macaskil-Bond mandated arbitrators, because both APA and USAPA will agree to the terms, both sides happy to have protected the seniority of there members.

The company gets there single certificate, and combined seniority group with a 6yr contract. The company will realize quick synergies of scale, and hopefully significant profits.

The nic will have never been implemented per the TA stipulation of a joint contract between east n west, simply a footnote in Wikipedia near the end of Usairways....

Just my thoughts after seeing how things are developing at crew news sessions and puttin myself in APA's place...

PS: if all you have is typical weboard name callin over my idea, well most on here will discount you out of hand, so save your effoert. If however you havea legitimate point to shoot my vision of things to come. Please, we all welcome a true reality thought, thx...

Your theory is flawed on several counts.

First 80% of the east list was hired before 1990. So that is not going to protect the 85-90 APA pilots like you think. The junior AA captain was hired 1992. So that means all of the east captains would be senior to AA captains. Most of the east F/O would be senior to AA captains. Not going to happen.

The APA also has another problem. Because they did not use DOH for TWA it would be a hard argument to deny TWA but accept DOH now. Also the TWA guys just filed sue against APA. No way APA wants to hand the TWA guys evidence of unfair treatment.

The APA just saw that ALPA got sued and lost a DFW suit because ALPA did not give TWA a chance to arbitrate but forced a bad deal on TWA. APA is not going to put themselves in the same position. It is legally safer to allow an arbitrator to make the decision Instead of negotiate something someone can sue over.

The APA has their own attrition double what the east has so they don't care about your attrition. They care about what how they will bid now. Besides attrition only helps the younger guys that will still be here. Not the guys about to retire.

Also the 7 year fence you talk about will be for equipment not bases. So that means us airways pilots will be fenced off AA wide bodies. Also the west will no longer be fenced off the us airways wide bodies.

If an AA pilots wants to move to CLT he can and bid his seniority. If a CLT pilots wants to bid DFW he can just not on a wide body.

Don't forget the company has a seat at the table. DOH would required significant C&R. The company is not going to pay for them and the APA is not going to give up pay or benefits to give the east DOH.

 

[OTTER574]

Bradford didn't hurt you. Furguson did. You listened to bad advice from a greedy F/O and gave your money to a bunch of incompetent lawyers.

Be careful of the east wish for a 3-way....Evidence against the east/usapa corruption may come back and bite you guys and hard.

But hey...at least you still work under LOA93 and I don't.

OTTER

 

[im back..!!]

Your theory is flawed on several counts.

First 80% of the east list was hired before 1990. So that is not going to protect the 85-90 APA pilots like you think. The junior AA captain was hired 1992. So that means all of the east captains would be senior to AA captains. Most of the east F/O would be senior to AA captains. Not going to happen.

The APA also has another problem. Because they did not use DOH for TWA it would be a hard argument to deny TWA but accept DOH now. Also the TWA guys just filed sue against APA. No way APA wants to hand the TWA guys evidence of unfair treatment.

The APA just saw that ALPA got sued and lost a DFW suit because ALPA did not give TWA a chance to arbitrate but forced a bad deal on TWA. APA is not going to put themselves in the same position. It is legally safer to allow an arbitrator to make the decision Instead of negotiate something someone can sue over.

The APA has their own attrition double what the east has so they don't care about your attrition. They care about what how they will bid now. Besides attrition only helps the younger guys that will still be here. Not the guys about to retire.

Also the 7 year fence you talk about will be for equipment not bases. So that means us airways pilots will be fenced off AA wide bodies. Also the west will no longer be fenced off the us airways wide bodies.

If an AA pilots wants to move to CLT he can and bid his seniority. If a CLT pilots wants to bid DFW he can just not on a wide body.

Don't forget the company has a seat at the table. DOH would required significant C&R. The company is not going to pay for them and the APA is not going to give up pay or benefits to give the east DOH.

I believe thats why David Bates told the AA pilots that the seniority issue will be painful, but wort it in the long run. Thats from the letter to there membership the friday after the news of a possible merger was announced.

You bring up some good points about fences, i would assume that they could craft them to both protect the AA flying as well as accomodating the companies need for synergy. either way, i dont believe a AA pilot would accept a pilot senior to him forever as opposed to senior to him for a finite set of known years.

The devil will be in the details, but with the nic in the USAirways seniority list all those foemer B-scale pilots American hired between 85-90 will be as toasted as the east furloughees are.
I dont see them accepting that......just my opinion....

 

[OTTER574]

I believe thats why David Bates told the AA pilots that the seniority issue will be painful, but wort it in the long run. Thats from the letter to there membership the friday after the news of a possible merger was announced.

You bring up some good points about fences, i would assume that they could craft them to both protect the AA flying as well as accomodating the companies need for synergy. either way, i dont believe a AA pilot would accept a pilot senior to him forever as opposed to senior to him for a finite set of known years.

The devil will be in the details, but with the nic in the USAirways seniority list all those foemer B-scale pilots American hired between 85-90 will be as toasted as the east furloughees are.
I dont see them accepting that......just my opinion....

Can you tell us laypeople/pilots how you get past the current and in effect TA with LCC (possible usapa may soon out of business) to a new TA with LCC/APA? Legally, of course.

Please, I'm all ears.

OTTER

 

[Phoenix]

Can you tell us laypeople/pilots how you get past the current and in effect TA with LCC (possible usapa may soon out of business) to a new TA with LCC/APA? Legally, of course.

Please, I'm all ears.

OTTER

You have an ATP. If a Harvard business lawyer told you how to land you would laugh.

 

[Phoenix]

Can you tell us laypeople/pilots how you get past the current and in effect TA with LCC (possible usapa may soon out of business) to a new TA with LCC/APA? Legally, of course.

Please, I'm all ears.

OTTER

You have an ATP. If a Harvard business lawyer told you how to land you would laugh.

 

[im back..!!]

Can you tell us laypeople/pilots how you get past the current and in effect TA with LCC (possible usapa may soon out of business) to a new TA with LCC/APA? Legally, of course.

Please, I'm all ears.

OTTER

I would assume the current TA would become null and void, (similar to a mariage that gets anulled when it hasent been consumated) (that means, never slept together for the "lay people").

Kinda like never having a combined seniority list, and not flying together.

And on your other point, I dont think you wil find a whole lot of worry over the loss of USAPA anywhere. It will have succeded just fine from theperspective of a majority of Usairways pilots.

Kinda like a great girlfriend, there when you need her to take care of you, but its time to move on to more permanent things....APA comes to mind... )

 

[Move2CLT]

Bradford didn't hurt you. Furguson did. You listened to bad advice from a greedy F/O and gave your money to a bunch of incompetent lawyers.

LOA93, no snapbacks, no 3%, no MDA, no DOH...

Who got hurt here?

 

[im back..!!]

I would assume the current TA would become null and void, (similar to a mariage that gets anulled when it hasent been consumated) (that means, never slept together for the "lay people").

Kinda like never having a combined seniority list, and not flying together.

And on your other point, I dont think you wil find a whole lot of worry over the loss of USAPA anywhere. It will have succeded just fine from theperspective of a majority of Usairways pilots.

Kinda like a great girlfriend, there when you need her to take care of you, but its time to move on to more permanent things....APA comes to mind... )

I should have mentioned, at least that was the explanation Mr Hemmingway gave at the 16th news.... but then what would he know?

 

[Move2CLT]

I would assume the current TA would become null and void, (similar to a mariage that gets anulled when it hasent been consumated) (that means, never slept together for the "lay people").

Kinda like never having a combined seniority list, and not flying together.

And on your other point, I dont think you wil find a whole lot of worry over the loss of USAPA anywhere. It will have succeded just fine from theperspective of a majority of Usairways pilots.

Kinda like a great girlfriend, there when you need her to take care of you, but its time to move on to more permanent things....APA comes to mind... )

How is it your girlfriend succeeded?

 

[im back..!!]

LOA93, no snapbacks, no 3%, no MDA, no DOH...

Who got hurt here?

The east did, as you well know.
But then again, its always painful standing up for what is right.

 

[im back..!!]

How is it your girlfriend succeeded?

Thats all you've got? You cant come up with anything but a girlfriend joke? Realy?

You mean to tell me, the largest airline in the world will have 1000 plus senior captains from AWA stagnated at the top of the list for 20 plus years while every pilot from Usairways and American hired after 1985(ish) retires from pulling there gear.

And all you got is a girlfriend joke?