June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Piedmont1984]

So you disagree that it is under periods of distress, trials, adversity where the true character of a person emerges as opposed to a time of peace and contentment? It's when a man hits his thumb with a hammer, or has his prized car is run into in the parking lot, when he loses big in the stock market, or any other time of adversity when the true nature and character of the man is revealed.

BTW - I wasn't the one that claimed the east pilots lost everything and were somehow compelled to abandon their collective honor as a result. I was simply replying to a post that made the claim that not honoring one's agreements is understandable given the circumstances. My point was clearly to point out that honor (morals, character, trustworthiness) and adversity are not inseparably linked. The crucible of adversity does not change a person's character it simply reveals it. When a metal becomes molten hot, the impurities contained within are released and revealed where they were otherwise masked from view - and so it is with us.

I don't equate hitting your thumb with stress and adversity. As a handyman by necessity, I have taken my temper out on inanimate objects many times 🙂

If the character of a man is to be determined by how many times he has spoken the word sh&t - or wanted to - then your view of character and integrity is puritan and simplistic to say the least.

 

[EastUS1]

When you yourself are coated in a thick layer of tar, ....

I'd missed that earlier. DO be so kind as to expand on your BS there...?

 

[CallawayGolf]

You're absolutely and completely just joking here....aren't you? 😉 I mean...at least be somewhat serious: "It's when a man hits his thumb with a hammer, or has his prized car is run into in the parking lot, when he loses big in the stock market, or any other time of adversity when the true nature and character of the man is revealed."

Ummm....I must be certain that I have this down correctly = When somebody merely hits his thumb with a hammer....or gets some damage to a parked car...such actually "qualifes" to you as notable "periods of distress, trials, adversity"....?...and is "when the true nature and character of the man is revealed."???? I can't honestly believe you offer that in any way other than jest. If you're indeed serious here...well...Whew!....Have you ever had the blessing (or perhaps the curse) of a VERY sheltered life indeed 🙂 Oh well..at least I didn't suffer the true test of real character = Hitting my thumb with hammer 😉

Thanks for the grins. I must now call an old squadron buddy up, and a few other friends as well, for weekly chat updates...and inform them all of a recently stubbed toe, and how nobly I'm enduring "The crucible of adversity..." as a tragic result of that 😉 I must be properly thankful that it wasn't anything so dire and extreme as parking lot car damage...which would certainly test any man's soul to it's utmost...Sheesh! 😉 You've just gotta' be kiddin' with all this here...aren't you?

You don't think the first words out of a person's mouth after a sudden, unexpected and intense moment of pain reveals anything about who the person truly is? Adversity doesn't have to be protracted, unique or intensely acute to do it's character revealing work. If I don't want my kids to model my character flaws then I had better have my base-level response well under control when I hit my thumb with a hammer. The need for good character and a controlled response is just as great when I am alone and I think I could get away with a moral lapse because - who would know?

Nope, my sheltered life of non-adversity includes things like:
having my cousin hit and killed by a car when I was 15 and he was walking three inches next to me on the same sidewalk. I got to see him flying off the hood of the car and land in a pool of his own blood. I had the pleasure of pulling headlight glass out of my underwear later that evening.

I got to come home from school at age 16 and find my father on the back porch with a shotgun hole in his chest and got to perform CPR on a cold, dead body were there was no longer a back and with each check compression air rushed out of the gun shot wound.

I got to witness my mother die of cancer when she was 55 years of age.

After all that I got to be the last surviving member of my family of origin when my brother intentionally overdosed on heroine and any other drug he could cram into his system because the prostitute he married was shockingly sleeping around on him.

Nope, no adversity here to speak of.

 

[EastUS1]

I don't equate hitting your thumb with stress and adversity.

If the character of a man is to be determined by how many times he has spoken the word sh&t - or wanted to - then your view of character and integrity is puritan and simplistic to say the least.

Indeed.

 

[EastCheats]

Yep..and very sadly, by all concerned it seems...and here we all are, still divided. Oh well...life goes on for us all yet....Within "The Big Picture"? = Just another little interesting experience along the way. Have a good one today.

I'm just a line pilot not particulary interested in union pilotics. My involvement began as a direct result of the Cactus 18 fiasco when I saw innocent friends of mine caught in a net dragged through the West pilot group.

If the Cactus 18er's such as screen name lynyrd skynyrd are willing to forgive and forget then so be it. From what I have read, he is a little more forgiving than I would be. It's a testimate of his character. Bottom line, he was falsely accused and put through hell.

Good day to you as well, East.

 

[Piedmont1984]

You don't think the first words out of a person's mouth after a sudden, unexpected and intense moment of pain reveals anything about who the person truly is? Adversity doesn't have to be protracted, unique or intensely acute to do it's character revealing work. If I don't want my kids to model my character flaws then I had better have my base-level response well under control when I hit my thumb with a hammer. The need for good character and a controlled response is just as great when I am alone and I think I could get away with a moral lapse because - who would know?

Nope, my sheltered life of non-adversity includes things like:
having my cousin hit and killed by a car when I was 15 and he was walking three inches next to me on the same sidewalk. I got to see him flying off the hood of the car and land in a pool of his own blood. I had the pleasure of pulling headlight glass out of my underwear later that evening.

I got to come home from school at age 16 and find my father on the back porch with a shotgun hole in his chest and got to perform CPR on a cold, dead body were there was no longer a back and with each check compression air rushed out of the gun shot wound.

I got to witness my mother die of cancer when she was 55 years of age.

After all that I got to be the last surviving member of my family of origin when my brother intentionally overdosed on heroine and any other drug he could cram into his system because the prostitute he married was shockingly sleeping around on him.

Nope, no adversity here to speak of.

My sincere sympathies for the terrible trials and tribulations you have had to endure.

However, if you don't vent once in awhile your true emotions will be suppressed,

If your emotions are suppressed they will one day explode on the airplane

If they explode on the airplane you will be taken off in a straight jacket

If you are taken off in a straight jacket you will be on the 6PM news

Don't be on the 6PM news, shout oh sh&t every once in awhile.

 

[EastUS1]

You don't think the first words out of a person's mouth after a sudden, unexpected and intense moment of pain reveals anything about who the person truly is?

Nope, no adversity here to speak of.

1) No I don't.
2) You've seen more "ugly" than I would have imagined. I certainly mean no disrespect to those loved ones lost, and may the Lord bless their spirits and lift all troubles from them...as I've no doubt He's done for them.

Real life does put this little labor squabble into proper perspective.

 

[Move2CLT]

Clear,

Ya know, I have tried to respect your opinion over the last year, you make some good points, off and on.

However, you just can't seem to cover up your bitterness, and it is way too extreme. Maybe you were an abused step-child, but most of your posts are over the line. This justice doesn't even affect you, but you have to be an azzhole about it. You claim to have a line on the legal aspects of things, but this is nothing you have a clue about.

Your fellow pilots in this industry have an opportunity to regain some of what was bascially stolen from them in order to finance the purchase of regional jets (Mid Atlantic). Of course you weren't there, so you don't have a freakin clue as to what transpired. But, of course, you are gonna get in your cheap shot while you can. DH! Over the years, as you mature, you will learn that anything that benefits a pilot in this industry is a victory.....until then, you are just a pawn.

You must be very junior in this industry and have no idea as to the magnatude of the ups and downs in trying to ride out a career.

I think you know what I mean as far as losing respect for you at this point. You don't have a clue here and are out of line.

breeze

Before you speak of of another's bitterness, you need to deal with your own.

Just reread your own and you'll see your little demon peeking back at you from in between your words.

Your hypocrisy and arrogance has reached an all the high breeze.

Time to take some time off from the boards.

 

[CallawayGolf]

My sincere sympathies for the terrible trials and tribulations you have had to endure.

However, if you don't vent once in awhile your true emotions will be suppressed,

If your emotions are suppressed they will one day explode on the airplane

If they explode on the airplane you will be taken off in a straight jacket

If you are taken off in a straight jacket you will be on the 6PM news

Don't be on the 6PM news, shout oh sh&t every once in awhile.

I do let those out at times and I know that my true character - left unchecked by self-control - is ugly, narcissistic and vile. I am certainly not worthy to be compared any true men of character or the only One who has ever lived apart from sin. We are not born with intrinsically positive moral character, quite the opposite really. But I believe we can choose to transform and develop our moral character during periods of non-adversity so that when adversity comes (and it will) we can have a more respectable response than what our old nature would have done.

Thanks for the kind words. They are appreciated.

 

[CallawayGolf]

1) No I don't.
2) You've seen more "ugly" than I would have imagined. I certainly mean no disrespect to those loved ones lost, and may the Lord bless their spirits and lift all troubles from them...as I've no doubt He's done for them.

Real life does put this little labor squabble into proper perspective.

Thanks!

 

[Phoenix]

You don't think the first words out of a person's mouth after a sudden, unexpected and intense moment of pain reveals anything about who the person truly is? Adversity doesn't have to be protracted, unique or intensely acute to do it's character revealing work. If I don't want my kids to model my character flaws then I had better have my base-level response well under control when I hit my thumb with a hammer. The need for good character and a controlled response is just as great when I am alone and I think I could get away with a moral lapse because - who would know?

Nope, my sheltered life of non-adversity includes things like:
having my cousin hit and killed by a car when I was 15 and he was walking three inches next to me on the same sidewalk. I got to see him flying off the hood of the car and land in a pool of his own blood. I had the pleasure of pulling headlight glass out of my underwear later that evening.

I got to come home from school at age 16 and find my father on the back porch with a shotgun hole in his chest and got to perform CPR on a cold, dead body were there was no longer a back and with each check compression air rushed out of the gun shot wound.

I got to witness my mother die of cancer when she was 55 years of age.

After all that I got to be the last surviving member of my family of origin when my brother intentionally overdosed on heroine and any other drug he could cram into his system because the prostitute he married was shockingly sleeping around on him.

Nope, no adversity here to speak of.

So that would be examples of adversity but your point wasn't about adversity, it was about a person's character being revealed in how they respond or develop.

Mostly it appears that you are quick to be blind to how other people view things and condemn them apart from a consideration of their view.

Other than that you are a pretty reasonable fellow and I would still buy you a drink.

 

[cleardirect]

While as stated above; I obviously don't support the extreme actions taken against those undeserving of such....well,,,What you're now saying, as a blanket statement, is pure and typical BS. There were indeed some people who definately deserved consequences for their actions.

Consequences? A $5 million law suit and hundreds of thousands of dollar in legal bills. Two years of stress and a life time of being called a racketeer. because someone opposed being taken advantage of. Web posts and phone calls.

 

[mrbreeze]

Yes but according to you east guys he was at the front of the line and had been waiting for longer then anyone so therefore he is entitled to take whatever position he wants. You see because he had sacrificed so much in order to be at the front of that line he was owed it and everyone else could be in that premium position next time.

Ahh, you're so cute with you typical spin and subject change.

Work on your attitude instead of being a smart ###.

breeze

 

[CallawayGolf]

So that would be examples of adversity but your point wasn't about adversity, it was about a person's character being revealed in how they respond or develop.

Mostly it appears that you are quick to be blind to how other people view things and condemn them apart from a consideration of their view.

Other than that you are a pretty reasonable fellow and I would still buy you a drink.

Thanks for the offer. I'm cheap too because I can't drink alcohol. Not for any moral reasons, but because one sip has a dramatic effect on me - cold sweats, headache, dizziness. Just not worth it.

The examples were after East claimed I must not have experienced any real adversity. Those just sort of popped off the top of my head as mileposts along the road of life. I didn't mention other areas such as finances or being treated unfairly or unkindly by others as I didn't want to overload the post.

The point remains that adversity (or whatever similar term you may prefer such as trial, testing, trouble, pain, harm ...) does not cause and is not an excuse for poor moral choices (or whatever term you may prefer such as honor, integrity, values, character, holiness ...). We are born caring about no one but ourselves. Without parental, social, educational, or faith-based guidance we would likely carry those narcissistic tendencies into adulthood. So exhibiting moral behavior requires information about what defines morality and then a transformation of the inner person to conform to societal standards of conduct. When pressures or adversities come, what has been accepted, learned and refined will come to the surface or the lack of such things will be revealed instead. This is entirely consistent with what I said originally and then through the subsequent responses on the same topic.

Which leads this conversation back full circle. Whatever adversities (real or perceived) that the east pilot group faced cannot be used as a means of justifying an attempt to renege on a binding agreement made between them and the west pilots - i.e. honoring the agreement. This is easily verified without any sense of blindness by researching any or all societal laws and definitions of morality and confirming as I have long held, that not one of those systems values breaking agreements and/or considers breaking an agreement to be legally/morally beneficial to the society. So the conclusion of the matter is clear, there is no circumstance where breaking an agreement to the harm of and without the consent of the other party is morally justified.

 

[Beancounter]

I see this board is still an east/west battleground. Thought I'd share some of a conversation I had yesterday with a relative. He is a recently retired Air Canada 767 check airman and went through a merger himself. He said the east and west pilots should be banding together, because, sure as $h!t the APA is planning on grinding us, both east and west, under their ropers. I don't know if I agree with him, but he has a lot more experience than I do.

The fellow that was my mentor in aviation is a retired AA MD-11 captain and he was of the highest caliber.

Bean