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June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

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If I had paid into this, I'd be pissed. What a waste. Remember what the company lawyer said about USAPA's lawsuits? It's not a snowball's chance in hell or a 99.999999 percent chance of failure, it's a 100 percent chance of failure (waste of time/ loser lawsuits). How many times do you have to fail before you do a self check to make sure your head isn't up your arse?

Bean
Better to pay this than the Addington Debacle. Everyone but your lawyers got the fact you have to have damage before you sue. And just because you lost your precious lottery ticket isn't harm. It is purely imagined harm. By the way, the Nic is not in place, is it..........
Here is a clue for the clueless. If the company could have imposed the Nic, it would have been done long, long ago. They obviously know, but are playing you and trying to get the judge to take the heat so they don't have a bunch of kids crying when the truth comes home. Everything they could legally do, they do.And right away. Figure it out. They can't do the Nic. It is that simple.
 
Better to pay this than the Addington Debacle. Everyone but your lawyers got the fact you have to have damage before you sue. And just because you lost your precious lottery ticket isn't harm. It is purely imagined harm. By the way, the Nic is not in place, is it..........
Here is a clue for the clueless. If the company could have imposed the Nic, it would have been done long, long ago. They obviously know, but are playing you and trying to get the judge to take the heat so they don't have a bunch of kids crying when the truth comes home. Everything they could legally do, they do.And right away. Figure it out. They can't do the Nic. It is that simple.

I don't see much similarity between the two. One was a guaranteed loser, the other was simply deemed not ripe and it was not a unanimous decision.

I'm not saying the Nic is fair, but by ousting ALPA you've given the west no choice, but to defend the Nic. What is the choice? DOH? You've got to be joking, that's far more, "unfair," than the Nic. I'm not saying the Nic will absolutely be the list, but there is a good chance it will be. I hope that you're not being fed the same kind of bad information that was fed to you during the arbitration. So many on the east were shocked they didn't get DOH. Everyone else knew it wasn't going to happen.

For the record, I think the pensions being terminated and passed to the PBGC was wrong, but it's already been done. Again and again for that matter, unfortunately. Throwing money after it on pointless lawsuits is just a waste of time and money. In the end, it will just make you pissed and poorer. Like you said though, it is your choice.

Bean
 
Better to pay this than the Addington Debacle. Everyone but your lawyers got the fact you have to have damage before you sue. And just because you lost your precious lottery ticket isn't harm. It is purely imagined harm. By the way, the Nic is not in place, is it..........
Here is a clue for the clueless. If the company could have imposed the Nic, it would have been done long, long ago. They obviously know, but are playing you and trying to get the judge to take the heat so they don't have a bunch of kids crying when the truth comes home. Everything they could legally do, they do.And right away. Figure it out. They can't do the Nic. It is that simple.

Flinging more poo luv?

How many times have you guys investigated this? How much money? What results?

Addington was a win and the company acknowledges it along with Silver. That's mo ey well spent.
 
I don't see much similarity between the two. One was a guaranteed loser, the other was simply deemed not ripe and it was not a unanimous decision.

I'm not saying the Nic is fair, but by ousting ALPA you've given the west no choice, but to defend the Nic. What is the choice? DOH? You've got to be joking, that's far more, "unfair," than the Nic. I'm not saying the Nic will absolutely be the list, but there is a good chance it will be. I hope that you're not being fed the same kind of bad information that was fed to you during the arbitration. So many on the east were shocked they didn't get DOH. Everyone else knew it wasn't going to happen.

For the record, I think the pensions being terminated and passed to the PBGC was wrong, but it's already been done. Again and again for that matter, unfortunately. Throwing money after it on pointless lawsuits is just a waste of time and money. In the end, it will just make you pissed and poorer. Like you said though, it is your choice.

Bean

Wait a minute- you blew 2 million on something that had no business being before the court in the first place and that is not a waste of money? Then the MAJORITY said you might never have a case of harm? And you paid to have them say that when the entire issue was not commented on yet? You kids are really losing sight of reality. That was a DEBACLE! At least Silver knows what is coming her way if she screws with this case again like Wake.
Everybody now knows where the 9th will go should the opportunity present itself again. You guys will never get the Nic. The 9th made that one perfectly clear, but it sure is entertaining watching the lawyers take you for another ride!
 
Flinging more poo luv?

How many times have you guys investigated this? How much money? What results?

Addington was a win and the company acknowledges it along with Silver. That's mo ey well spent.



Here you go Move. This is just too easy. Let's quote the 9th, instead of some internet harpie......



CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.


So a dismissal is now a win? :blush: Come on kids, you are losing a grip on things! By the way, did you buy the Davidson place yet? That reverse commute is a buster!
 
Better to pay this than the Addington Debacle. Everyone but your lawyers got the fact you have to have damage before you sue. And just because you lost your precious lottery ticket isn't harm. It is purely imagined harm. By the way, the Nic is not in place, is it..........
Here is a clue for the clueless. If the company could have imposed the Nic, it would have been done long, long ago. They obviously know, but are playing you and trying to get the judge to take the heat so they don't have a bunch of kids crying when the truth comes home. Everything they could legally do, they do.And right away. Figure it out. They can't do the Nic. It is that simple.
Addington was not a debacle, except perhaps for the east. When a judge and jury evaluated the merits of the west class claim, USAPA was handed a loss and an injunction to go along with it. The Ninth by a 2:1 margin determined that the case was not ripe until a contract is ratified and specifically said they were not making any determination on the thorny issues of the merits of whether or not a non-NIC list would be a DFR. Not weighing in means they did not have a legal basis upon which to review the merits because they had already excluded themselves from looking at the merits by their claim of non-jurisdiction. What they did portray for all the world to see, and which was pick up by judge Silver was that they agreed that USAPA's actions would harm the west if the NIC was discarded in favor of a proposal that was more biased towards the east pilots. The fact that Silver referenced that and the other related documents from the Addington trial means that this was anything but a waste of legal resources.

Your logic belies the weakness in your own argument. The Company did accept the NIC because it met with every legal and contractual criterion for acceptance. What they could not do was force USAPA to accept it and move to a TA/JCBA. What they could not do, thanks to Addington, was accept any of USAPA's non-NIC proposals. Like you say, if they could have accepted it they would have, but they know that USAPA cannot simply abandon its DFR to the west pilots and that USAPA cannot alter a Collective Bargaining Agreement (Transition Agreement) without all parties agreeing to do so.

Here's what we know from the facts in the DJ case:
* Silver determined that the Company's DJ filing is ripe and she owes them relief on their claims

* Silver acknowledged that the federal courts have embraced the concept that the west pilots have been harmed

* Silver acknowledged that the Company faces two real and irreconcilable threats: 1) that the west pilots have the legal grounds to file a collusion suit against the Company if they discard the NIC, and 2) that USAPA can continue under the RLA to place the operational and financial performance of the Company at serious risk if the seniority section of the proposed collective bargaining agreement is not resolved by the court.

* Silver has been convinced that the DJ is a different matter than Addington and that the Ninth's decision on ripeness does not preclude her from making on ruling on the Company's claim on Counts 1 - 4

That means she will rule (perhaps by summary judgement as was requested by all parties involved) and grant relief to the Company. If she rules in summary, then that means she has all of the information she needs from the previous Addington proceedings to make her DFR decision. Since the Ninth didn't get into that thorny issue, that means she will be using the records from Wake's courtroom to make her DJ decision. Hmm, wonder how that will turn out?
 
Hmm, wonder how that will turn out?

Here is what you left out....

Unless Silver goes totaly off the reservation, only usapa would need to appeal the decision....and if a merger occurs while we are waiting for that appeal...bye bye usapa...and bye bye appeal.
 
Addington was not a debacle, except perhaps for the east. When a judge and jury evaluated the merits of the west class claim, USAPA was handed a loss and an injunction to go along with it. The Ninth by a 2:1 margin determined that the case was not ripe until a contract is ratified and specifically said they were not making any determination on the thorny issues of the merits of whether or not a non-NIC list would be a DFR. Not weighing in means they did not have a legal basis upon which to review the merits because they had already excluded themselves from looking at the merits by their claim of non-jurisdiction. What they did portray for all the world to see, and which was pick up by judge Silver was that they agreed that USAPA's actions would harm the west if the NIC was discarded in favor of a proposal that was more biased towards the east pilots. The fact that Silver referenced that and the other related documents from the Addington trial means that this was anything but a waste of legal resources.

Your logic belies the weakness in your own argument. The Company did accept the NIC because it met with every legal and contractual criterion for acceptance. What they could not do was force USAPA to accept it and move to a TA/JCBA. What they could not do, thanks to Addington, was accept any of USAPA's non-NIC proposals. Like you say, if they could have accepted it they would have, but they know that USAPA cannot simply abandon its DFR to the west pilots and that USAPA cannot alter a Collective Bargaining Agreement (Transition Agreement) without all parties agreeing to do so.

Here's what we know from the facts in the DJ case:
* Silver determined that the Company's DJ filing is ripe and she owes them relief on their claims

* Silver acknowledged that the federal courts have embraced the concept that the west pilots have been harmed

* Silver acknowledged that the Company faces two real and irreconcilable threats: 1) that the west pilots have the legal grounds to file a collusion suit against the Company if they discard the NIC, and 2) that USAPA can continue under the RLA to place the operational and financial performance of the Company at serious risk if the seniority section of the proposed collective bargaining agreement is not resolved by the court.

* Silver has been convinced that the DJ is a different matter than Addington and that the Ninth's decision on ripeness does not preclude her from making on ruling on the Company's claim on Counts 1 - 4

That means she will rule (perhaps by summary judgement as was requested by all parties involved) and grant relief to the Company. If she rules in summary, then that means she has all of the information she needs from the previous Addington proceedings to make her DFR decision. Since the Ninth didn't get into that thorny issue, that means she will be using the records from Wake's courtroom to make her DJ decision. Hmm, wonder how that will turn out?

Lets post this again, Addington was remanded, and DISMISSED. The spin doctors make this a win. Dismissed, means dumped, removed. When someone is dismissed from their job, or their school, is that a WIN? You kids are delusional. A dismissal, means GONE.
Kozy, 89 F.3d at 640 (citing Galindo, 793 F.2d at
1509). Similarly, in the context of negotiations toward a CBA,
the parties could shift positions until negotiations are complete,
and the final agreement could be acceptable to Plaintiffs.
CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side..
 
Here you go Move. This is just too easy. Let's quote the 9th, instead of some internet harpie......



CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.


So a dismissal is now a win? :blush: Come on kids, you are losing a grip on things! By the way, did you buy the Davidson place yet? That reverse commute is a buster!
A dismissal on the merits would be a loss. A dismissal on non-jurisdictional ripeness is neither a win nor a loss for either party when it comes to legally resolving the question of the DFR requirements on USAPA as they pertain to the NIC. USAPA didn't win, as they claim, the right to use any list of their choosing. Both parties were simply told to go back and work through the processes until a ratified CBA is achieved and then the courts will be able to evaluate those actions against federal law. If USAPA had wanted resolution and a "win" on their DOH proposal, they would not have challenged the ripeness of the Addington claim.

The Ninth ruling left both parties in a situation where no progress was attainable. AOL's win in Wake's court on the merits revealed that the Company would be at risk for accepting any non-NIC proposal. But with USAPA still unwilling to accept the NIC and in fact seeking to be released to self-help if Management didn't violate the TA, this opened the door wide for the Company's DJ case to be filed. Fortunately the Company, AOL and Silver all can accept the undisputed facts of the DJ case which thanks to Addington I, should make her decision immeasurably easier than if it had never occurred.
 
dis·miss (d
ibreve.gif
s-m
ibreve.gif
s
prime.gif
)
tr.v. dis·missed, dis·miss·ing, dis·miss·es
1. To end the employment or service of; discharge.​

2. To direct or allow to leave: dismissed troops after the inspection; dismissed the student after reprimanding him.

3.
a. To stop considering; rid one's mind of; dispel: dismissed all thoughts of running for office.

b. To refuse to accept or recognize; reject: dismissed the claim as highly improbable.


4. Law To put (a claim or action) out of court without further hearing.
 
Give it up kids, you lost it big! The judges said DISMISSED, and that means it is OVER! Especially you golfer, they didn't say anything you said. Here is what they said.......



CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

Show where they said all the crap you said they did. I dare you,not Bybee or the other crackpots. The ruling majority. You know, the ones that DISMISSED the case. :blush:
 
Wait a minute- you blew 2 million on something that had no business being before the court in the first place and that is not a waste of money? Then the MAJORITY said you might never have a case of harm? And you paid to have them say that when the entire issue was not commented on yet? You kids are really losing sight of reality. That was a DEBACLE! At least Silver knows what is coming her way if she screws with this case again like Wake.
Everybody now knows where the 9th will go should the opportunity present itself again. You guys will never get the Nic. The 9th made that one perfectly clear, but it sure is entertaining watching the lawyers take you for another ride!

Luv,

You're grasping at straws and I've got to be honest with you, they are reeeeally thin straws. Addington proved if you do anything other than the Nic you're going to be in trouble. Not being ripe just means you have not yet given the company a list other than the Nic. Well you probably have given them one, they just laughed and handed it back. Once you try and implement a list that causes more harm to the west than the Nic, well, you're in the poop house. For gosh sakes, you have DOH in your union constitution, something you'll never see. I'm afraid you guys are just setting your selves up for yet another disappointment. You're going to be really pissed off and angry and blame us. You've given us no choice, except to defend ourselves. I don't want to shove the Nic down your throat, but if the only alternative is DOH, then that really isn't a choice.

Bean
 
dis·miss (d
ibreve.gif
s-m
ibreve.gif
s
prime.gif
)
tr.v. dis·missed, dis·miss·ing, dis·miss·es
1. To end the employment or service of; discharge.​

2. To direct or allow to leave: dismissed troops after the inspection; dismissed the student after reprimanding him.

3.
a. To stop considering; rid one's mind of; dispel: dismissed all thoughts of running for office.

b. To refuse to accept or recognize; reject: dismissed the claim as highly improbable.


4. Law To put (a claim or action) out of court without further hearing.



ju·ris·dic·tion
   [joor-is-dik-shuhn]noun

1.
the right, power, or authority to administer justice byhearing and determining controversies.


The Ninth claimed that the federal courts did not have the jurisdiction, based on a lack of ripeness, to hear or administer justice in the Addington case. That's why they dismissed the case, right? So if the federal courts had no jurisdictional right to hear or administer justice to either AOL or USAPA, then how can you (or anyone on the east) make any claims that the Ninth determined that USAPA is free to negotiate and that a DOH list is not a DFR? If the Ninth is prevented from resolving the controversies because they lack jurisdiction, then how did they somehow resolve the controversies in a matter where the law prevents them (by their own claims against ripeness) from doing so? Sounds a little schizophrenic to me - "we can't legally hear or resolve your controversies, but by way of a parting gift we will resolve your legal controversies with our order to dismiss. If that's not funny in an oxymoronic kind of way, I don't know what is.
 
Luv,

You're grasping at straws and I've got to be honest with you, they are reeeeally thin straws. Addington proved if you do anything other than the Nic you're going to be in trouble. Not being ripe just means you have not yet given the company a list other than the Nic. Well you probably have given them one, they just laughed and handed it back. Once you try and implement a list that causes more harm to the west than the Nic, well, you're in the poop house. For gosh sakes, you have DOH in your union constitution, something you'll never see. I'm afraid you guys are just setting your selves up for yet another disappointment. You're going to be really pissed off and angry and blame us. You've given us no choice, except to defend ourselves. I don't want to shove the Nic down your throat, but if the only alternative is DOH, then that really isn't a choice.

Bean


Bean, are you serious? You are saying a case that was dismissed tells ME I am grasping at straws? You kids are honestly starting to make it really easy to understand where all the money went, and where it will continue to go. You lost a case, that was dismissed, yet you continue to quote it and threaten with it. Dismissed means exactly that, DISMISSED. The case was thrown out. So what if a couple of dissenters said something about how they disagreed. They were the dissent and the minority. Fine with me, keep spending your money. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.


CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.
 
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