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June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Show me one USAPA proposal for seniority that does not "harm" the west pilot group when compared to the Nic award. There is a difference between legal theory and the reality of this situation.

If you read the 9th objectively you will see that they did not accept the West premise that all USAPA proposals (to the company, the only other bargaining agent) will be evaluated relative to the Nic.
 
Show me one USAPA proposal for seniority that does not "harm" the west pilot group when compared to the Nic award. There is a difference between legal theory and the reality of this situation.

If you read the 9th objectively you will see that they did not accept the West premise that all USAPA proposals (to the company, the only other bargaining agent) will be evaluated relative to the Nic.
I agree neither of our opinions matter, but that doesn't mean no opinion on the subject matters. Management and their legal counsel, who is extremely well versed in the RLA and collective bargaining agreements, have expressed an opinion subsequent to the Ninth's ruling that this is not simply an internal union dispute. In their view the Company is legally bound to their agreement and that accepting a non-NIC list would place them in a position of violating the RLA and could be liable for colluding with USAPA as it knowingly violates its DFR to the west pilots. That opinion or interpretation of the law does matter and they have clearly convinced judge Silver that the Ninth did not resolve the dispute or release the Company from its contractual obligation to uphold the terms of the TA. The obvious conclusion from all of this, and one that the Ninth could not so easily have overlooked if Management would have remained enjoined to the Addington case, is that this is not merely an internal dispute and the statements offered by the Ninth to that affect are all but meaningless given what has transpired since they declared the matter to lack the necessary ripeness.

Mickey Mouse and Daffy Duck could have an opinion and it would mean just as much. Unless the 9th changes what they published, or the SCOTUS changes it for them (like Wakeoff got his injunction shoved down his own throat) then any interference into the free bargaining would be just that.
 
If you read the 9th objectively you will see that they did not accept the West premise that all USAPA proposals (to the company, the only other bargaining agent) will be evaluated relative to the Nic.
If not the Nicolau just what would the west fear of harm be evaluated against?

The only accepted seniority list the company has an dtherefore the only that any other list could be compared to would be the Nicolau.

Usapa can't make up a list, make up a second list and say see you are not harmed by our list.
 
If you read the 9th objectively you will see that they did not accept the West premise that all USAPA proposals (to the company, the only other bargaining agent) will be evaluated relative to the Nic.

Mickey Mouse and Daffy Duck could have an opinion and it would mean just as much. Unless the 9th changes what they published, or the SCOTUS changes it for them (like Wakeoff got his injunction shoved down his own throat) then any interference into the free bargaining would be just that.
I know Mickey Mouse gets a lot of votes in every presidential election, but I wasn't aware he was a recognized expert on the RLA and collective bargaining agreements. Just look at the transcripts where Siegel explained the only real issue the court has to decide on to judge Silver and how quickly she moved on to shut down the procedures once she "got it". Did Mickey or Donald ever have that kind of effect on a federal judge in a legal matter concerning questions about the RLA?

The Ninth and the SCOTUS don't have to do anything for the Company to receive the relief they asked the court for in their DJ filing. The SCOTUS had no opinion on the Addington case and the Ninth didn't say anything that would prevent judge Silver from granting judicial relief on the Company's DJ matter. Silver clearly understands the distinctions between the two cases and the two different measures of ripeness to determine jurisdiction, but it doesn't appear that you do at this point. No matter, as you said, your opinion (like mine) won't matter in the least to Silver or how she determines the questions of law that must be answered in this case.
 
Usapa is telling APA there will be three lists to merge. The ex-TWA guys are telling anyone who will listen that there will be four lists to merge.

http://www.aicapilot.org/

IF there's a merger between AA and LCC......


Kirby says it is three also. So it is three, possibly four now. Interesting development. Seems the Leonidas crowd is the only one thinking it is two. The AA guys I have run into are saying three also.
 
I would be happy to have the east, west and American represented at the table using the Nicolau and the American list.

If the NIC is used as the list, negotiations become a spectator sport for the West. It will be APA and USAPA. AOL won't be at the party.

Driver...
 
Kirby says it is three also. So it is three, possibly four now. Interesting development. Seems the Leonidas crowd is the only one thinking it is two. The AA guys I have run into are saying three also.

Well now lets not forget Empire and Shuttle. That makes it 6 lists to merge. Maybe we can get the wholly owns involved. Maybe we can get this up to 10 lists!

Am I the only one that sees how crazy this can get???

Driver...
 
The AA guys I have run into are saying three also.

That's also the opinion of my buddies at American, from what they've heard and for what opinions are worth. What a true "cluster" it will be, if this merger does take place...especially if "team tempe" gets control....Sheesh!

"Seems the Leonidas crowd is the only one thinking it is two." That appears to be the case so far.
 
If you read the 9th objectively you will see that they did not accept the West premise that all USAPA proposals (to the company, the only other bargaining agent) will be evaluated relative to the Nic.

Mickey Mouse and Daffy Duck could have an opinion and it would mean just as much. Unless the 9th changes what they published, or the SCOTUS changes it for them (like Wakeoff got his injunction shoved down his own throat) then any interference into the free bargaining would be just that.
I forgot to ask, was it Mickey Mouse that handed USAPA a defeat on LOA93 or was that Robert Siegel? Was it Daffy Duck who handed USAPA a defeat on the status quo lawsuit in NC or was that Robert Siegel? Was it Mickey Mouse who handed USAPA a defeat on the status quo lawsuit in NY or was that Robert Siegel? For a guy who you say his opinion doesn't matter he sure seems to take USAPA to the cleaners in federal court or before an appointed arbitrator on matters related to the RLA and collective bargaining agreements don't you think?
 
If the NIC is used as the list, negotiations become a spectator sport for the West. It will be APA and USAPA. AOL won't be at the party.

Driver...
Usapa will not be a party. Usapa will be gone. AOL is not a representative. But the APA could find a way to have WEST pilots represented just like they could find a way to have the EAST pilots represented as APA pilots.
 
Usapa will not be a party. Usapa will be gone....... But the APA could find a way to have WEST pilots represented just like they could find a way to have the EAST pilots represented as APA pilots.

"But the APA could find a way..."

In your projected scenario; why should they even bother to do so?
 
The deal with APA requires APA to file for single carrier status as soon as practicable, but no later than 6 months after the closing of any transaction. USAPA will be short lived after any merger of LCC and AA.
 
Well now lets not forget Empire and Shuttle. That makes it 6 lists to merge. Maybe we can get the wholly owns involved. Maybe we can get this up to 10 lists!

Am I the only one that sees how crazy this can get???

Driver...
Maybe just you and EastUS....

Your post does illustrate why there will only be two lists, though. Much like the bankruptcy Judge said he didn't care about what happened to AA employees in 2003 when considering to approve AA's 1113 motions, only about today, an arbitrator won't care about mergers that happened in the past and whether to undo those seniority integrations - he'll only care about the seniority integration in a US/AA merger (IF it happens). US has an official, accepted by both the CBA and company at the time it was completed, integrated list and AA has an official list. That's what will be used.

Jim
 
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