June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

It is kind of like going from mexican jail to an American prison. The west has been treated so poorly and abused so badly ....

Just plain unbelievable (not to mention disgusting).....Sheesh!....Do you need a few more tissues sweetie pie?....Perhaps an entire gross of fresh boxes of them? Small wonder some of these people are so Doctor Phil obsessed....and to think that this type of "toughness" is apparently acceptable in what laughably passes for "Pilots" in these sorry times....Words just fail me.

 

[Res Judicata]

I did have a conversation with an old friend at AA. He has been attending all the APA events. Time will tell, but I don't think you are going to like APA's view on the NIC.

Their view on the nic as as worthless as USCABAS view. They control nothing regarding past arbitrations.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Their view on the nic as as worthless as USCABAS view. They control nothing regarding past arbitrations.

Interesting. Nic has done so well in a 3200 vs 1600 scenario so far, If it becomes 13000+ vs 1600 I bet it will speed right along.

Assuming the myans were incorrect about 2012, I guess we will see how it works out sometime next year if Doug manages to pull this thing off.

 

[nic4us]

No they didn't. Even if we had taken the Nic the day it came out, the guys I'm talking about are way more junior than if they had stayed on the east.

The merger changed things for us all. Yes, he put westies in a position to immediately go to widebodies they certainly would not have had by 2007, but kept the furloughed at their 2005 positions. I don't think he shared things evenly, and I agree that the delay in SLI had kept things from bring even but it is not theft because of the TA you guys are clinging to for the Nic. Yes or no. Separate ops until a joint contract?

The scab theft crap just takes away yout credibility.

BS call here Pi.

Stand alone, AWA had no near term expectation of widebodies.....I would say that is true...however, the expectation changed the day the merger was announced.

Just as the east lost their expectation of not having a job in two weeks, the West gained expectations at a larger merged airline. Which BTW, since we are talking about widebodies, was slated to be the launch customer for the 350, and which was able to take delivery of additional 330's more than doubling the fleet, and we almost got the 340's to do the China thing. Those were all facts in front of Nicolau, and he gave credit for the existing widebodies US had, and the expectations that the West had in 2005, not 2007.

Now the furloughed also got their 2005 expectation filled. They were recalled in seniority order to the bottom of the list. No line jumping, no going from the street to senior to the captain seat.

See what you are doing. The exact same thing usapa is doing. You are assigning to the West what you believe is their career expectation, while simutaneously greatly exagerating your own.

In other words, you are saying the benefits of the merger are for the exclusive rights of former east pilots, while the West can have a shrunken fleet, and not even the fleet but just the former domicile.

Now lets talk theft. How many West pilots are flying the ATA 757s or the 190's. Oh, wait, I will answere my own question. There are West pilots flying the 190's out of seniority order, who are senior to east pilot recalls per the TA, not even using Nic. How many West pilots were furloughed in 2008 when the company violated West min block, lost a grievence that still has not been paid? The east has stolen..pure and simple, theft of West jobs that came with the merger.

 

[EastUS1]

Stand alone, AWA had no near term expectation of widebodies.....I would say that is true...however, the expectation changed the day the merger was announced.

"....however, the expectation changed..." Sounds like a "Personal Problem" to me 😉

Let me see if I have this convoluted BS at all right:

1) AWA was expanding/hiring/ruling the commercial skies, and that's why Nic leaned (no; fell completly over) to the west side...?

2) Said standalone mighty AWA, though, had "no near term expectation of widebodies" (Translation =ZERO future orders or even projections for them at all)...BUT...it follows, "logically" that wide bodies should be instantly afforded them?....and naturally of course, via the nic's insanely inflated "seniority"?

Ummm...OK..I've finally got it figured out now = "We SAVED you! (by personally doing nothing whatsoever..but no matter) ....So give us everything you have or ever had on a silver platter right NOW!!....Waaah!".

Folks...you just couldn't make this kind of insane stuff up 😉

 

[nic4us]

Cry Me a river. You got what you deserved. Especially when you kept the pay disparate.
Tell us more about your Mexican prison experience.

Ya know what? You are a typical usapa supporting scab. Tell us again who kept pay disparate?

The answere is the east scab union guaranteed itself their B scale. Fought like hell trying to get out of it, then when told by the arbitrator that their scab union will stay on LOA93, threw another hissy fit that got an injunction slapped on their antics. This of course after the scab president got them parked by starting a lawsuit that accused the NMB of not doing their job.

Keep on posting for us Claxhole. You make it easy to expose the scabs for what they are.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Now lets talk theft. How many West pilots are flying the ATA 757s or the 190's. Oh, wait, I will answere my own question. There are West pilots flying the 190's out of seniority order, who are senior to east pilot recalls per the TA, not even using Nic. How many West pilots were furloughed in 2008 when the company violated West min block, lost a grievence that still has not been paid? The east has stolen..pure and simple, theft of West jobs that came with the merger.

How is that blamed on the east? Doug and team tempe put those airplanes where Doug and team tempe wanted to put those airplanes. There is nothing in the T/A that says doug had to put the hardware on the east.

More than likely the one deciding factor for Doug was cost. Since the west didn't think pay parity was something to push for we ended up with it being cheaper for Doug to operate those aircraft on the east. Given that it was quite apparant that we were not going to have a combined sen list or contract for a very long time once the NIC mess surfaced it was real easy to see where the growth was going to go in a two payscale company. The side with the cheaper crew costs.

 

[Claxon]

The Franke legions cannot figure the damage they inflicted on themselves. They are their own worst enemies.

 

[Claxon]

That Cleardirect sob story is only rivaled by some of Ames and Nic4 crying jags.

 

[nic4us]

How is that blamed on the east? Doug and team tempe put those airplanes where Doug and team tempe wanted to put those airplanes. There is nothing in the T/A that says doug had to put the hardware on the east.

More than likely the one deciding factor for Doug was cost. Since the west didn't think pay parity was something to push for we ended up with it being cheaper for Doug to operate those aircraft on the east. Given that it was quite apparant that we were not going to have a combined sen list or contract for a very long time once the NIC mess surfaced it was real easy to see where the growth was going to go in a two payscale company. The side with the cheaper crew costs.

Here, read the TA as it pertains to additional aircraft. True that the TA does not say were the aircraft go, but it most certainly says who will fly them.

c) The America West MEC and the US Airways MEC will agree​

internally as to which pilot group shall operate such aircraft or will​

implement a process, including binding arbitration if necessary, to​

determine the Association’s position regarding the allocation of​

such flying. In the event that the Airline Parties do not agree with​

the Association position, then the dispute will be resolved in​

accordance with Section X. below. The standard to be applied by​

the Arbitrator in that proceeding will be the fair and equitable​

allocation of flying between the two pilot groups. Nothing in this​

paragraph will delay or prevent the Airline Parties from putting​

such aircraft into revenue service.

So..you are saying that the "fair and equitable allocation of that flying BETWEEN THE TWO PILOT GROUPS" was to give it all to the east, then sit by and watch West pilots get furloughed, then recalled east TO the bottom of a list that the exact same TA says they are senior to not only newhire, but recalled pilots who were also recalled then furloughed from the West?

We went to arbitration and usapa is intentionally forcing seperate ops and keeping all that flying for east pilots...typical scab tactic of the scab union.

 

[nic4us]

That Cleardirect sob story is only rivaled by some of Ames and Nic4 crying jags.

And all three of us are flattered that a scab such as yourself pays attention and post lies to cover his tracks.

Now...don't pike out on me Claxon...I am counting on you to keep proving yourself an idiot.

 

[nic4us]

"....however, the expectation changed..." Sounds like a "Personal Problem" to me 😉

Let me see if I have this convoluted BS at all right:

1) AWA was expanding/hiring/ruling the commercial skies, and that's why Nic leaned (no; fell completly over) to the west side...?

2) Said standalone mighty AWA, though, had "no near term expectation of widebodies" (Translation =ZERO future orders or even projections for them at all)...BUT...it follows, "logically" that wide bodies should be instantly afforded them?....and naturally of course, via the nic's insanely inflated "seniority"?

Ummm...OK..I've finally got it figured out now = "We SAVED you! (by personally doing nothing whatsoever..but no matter) ....So give us everything you have or ever had on a silver platter right NOW!!....Waaah!".

Folks...you just couldn't make this kind of insane stuff up 😉

I did not say AWA saved US....I did not demand anything the east had...yet that is your interpretation of my post?

Well allow me to interpret the above post.

You have no logical arguement against any statement I made, so you paint me as a whinner. You have zero evidence that Nic showed any favortism to the West whatsoever. You have your head up your rear and just can't grasp the fact that the east pilot's expectations were not only met, they were enhanced by the NIc.

It simply does not fall into your comprehension that a newhire...Odell.... had a job and Colello did not, and when Odell does not surrender his job to a furloughed east pilot, you accuse him of being a whinner, then support the scab union that assited Colello in stealing Odell's job.

In you own words...we are done here.

 

[cleardirect]

That Cleardirect sob story is only rivaled by some of Ames and Nic4 crying jags.

What you call a sob story is the truth and nothing but facts.

You may not like the fact that usapa and the east pilots did the things I bring up but to damn bad. What part of this is untrue or not accurate?

Do you think the apa would file a RICO suit against an east pilot? How about spend hundreds of thoudsand on worthless law suits without telling the board? How many section 29 letters do you think the apa is going to send out? Do you think the apa would drop a grievance and not even fight it if it was going to cost the east $2.5 million out of your pockets? How about the ACARS grievance that has never been persued. The one that benefitted the east and harmed the west. The apa president going to call east pilots traitors and file false charges against certains members while demanding their jobs?

We have already begun to see the whimpering from the east about how poorly they are treated in the tear stained campaign letter from the BPR member Ingram.

 

[Keroseneuser]

We went to arbitration and usapa is intentionally forcing seperate ops and keeping all that flying for east pilots...typical scab tactic of the scab union.

Ok so with all the problems we have with NIC how is USAPA forcing seperate ops? You know just as well as I do that kirby + Nic had zero chance of ever being ratified. The only chance NIC ever had of seeing a ratified contract would have been stellar pay rates from tempe. Which they won't even discuss...unless you fly a plane with AA painted on the side and even then I would not call them steller.

The only other thing I see that USAPA could have done was put Kirby/nic out for vote....and we would still be exactly where we are today. Don't take this to mean I agree with USAPA on some of the other things they did (rico etc) but from a practical standpoint what was a union, ANY union supposed to do when one side say "Nic or nothing" and the other side says "Anything BUT NIC"

The east line pilots will vote yes for a lot of different scenarios, DOH with heavy fences and protections for east and west, attrition protections for the mass east exodous that gives east guys east retire seats and west guys west retire seats, something middle of the road that does not chop 1/3 of the east list off and staple them etcetc. From a east line pilot perspective I KNOW the east voters will say yes to a lot of things. NIC unmodified however is not one of them. So since all we have seen ever since NIC came out is "Nic or Nothing" what exactly could USAPA have done to get a joint list and solve the pay parity problem, which would have also solved the growth aircraft problem?

 

[nic4us]

Ok so with all the problems we have with NIC how is USAPA forcing seperate ops? You know just as well as I do that kirby + Nic had zero chance of ever being ratified. The only chance NIC ever had of seeing a ratified contract would have been stellar pay rates from tempe. Which they won't even discuss...unless you fly a plane with AA painted on the side and even then I would not call them steller.

The only other thing I see that USAPA could have done was put Kirby/nic out for vote....and we would still be exactly where we are today. Don't take this to mean I agree with USAPA on some of the other things they did (rico etc) but from a practical standpoint what was a union, ANY union supposed to do when one side say "Nic or nothing" and the other side says "Anything BUT NIC"

The east line pilots will vote yes for a lot of different scenarios, DOH with heavy fences and protections for east and west, attrition protections for the mass east exodous that gives east guys east retire seats and west guys west retire seats, something middle of the road that does not chop 1/3 of the east list off and staple them etcetc. From a east line pilot perspective I KNOW the east voters will say yes to a lot of things. NIC unmodified however is not one of them. So since all we have seen ever since NIC came out is "Nic or Nothing" what exactly could USAPA have done to get a joint list and solve the pay parity problem, which would have also solved the growth aircraft problem?

A couple of points regarding your reply.

1. "WE" don't have a problem with the Nic.....you have a problem with the Nic. A onesided, self induced impass, that is the cornerstone of the usapa arguement, and the linchpin usapa uses to force seperate ops.

2. One side is not saying "anything but the Nic"...they are saying DOH, take West jobs, or else. Have been since the merger was announced. Maybe you can point to me where in the Nic transcripts the east ever came off DOH. Maybe, you were at Wye river, when the east demanded DOH. Perhaps you were at the table when usapa passed the DOH list to the company who promptly gave it right back to them.

3. We will never know what would have been offered in a Nic inclusive contract, or whether it would have passed. That is pure speculation on your part. Granted a Nic inclusive Kirby would not have passed, the West would have helped turn that down.

4. What any union should do is live up to its DFR owed its class and craft. The members of LCC's pilot group entered into a binding arbitration amongst ourselves. It is the DFR of the union to uphold the results of that arbitration, not pick one side and frustrate the result. On this point, I am upset that the east founded usapa to renege, and will be happy to see usapa gone, but I am almost as equally pissed at the fat a-hole Prater, and was not in the least surprised to see him ousted.