Loa 91
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
Phoenix
Veteran
Most of the LGA pilots are former Trump shuttle pilots and therefore have a different retirement package as compared to the pilots in other bases. They are also closer to retirement on average (Don't worry, some of the posters who always try to spin the truth will soon try to discredit what I write)EyeInTheSky said:
You can guess what the LGA pilots have to loose that others don't...
Phoenix
Veteran
Please do advise when 320 becomes a co-pilot. And also when he becoms an RJ pilot.FlyingHippie said:
Take care and God Bless,
Phoenix
- Thread Starter
- #49
Michael707767:
I did not see your question until today. Your question is a multiple question, which is speculative. Therefore, it's difficult to answer; however, each agreement is different and depends on market realities at the time.
The next pilot tentative agreement will likely be an America West contract for all employees, which will be approved by the pilot group.
In regard to LOA 91, the tentative agreement was overwhelmingly ratified by the pilot group by a 3 to 1 margin.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
I did not see your question until today. Your question is a multiple question, which is speculative. Therefore, it's difficult to answer; however, each agreement is different and depends on market realities at the time.
The next pilot tentative agreement will likely be an America West contract for all employees, which will be approved by the pilot group.
In regard to LOA 91, the tentative agreement was overwhelmingly ratified by the pilot group by a 3 to 1 margin.
Respectfully,
USA320Pilot
not to nitpick, but how can a pilot tentative agreement make a deal for all employees? ALPA may negotiate for you, but certainly not for me.USA320Pilot said:
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
My personal feeling is that LOA 91 passed because it really doesn't effect any mainline pilot directly. It's really easy to vote for something that only nails someone else. I don't think that any sort of America West type contract, especially one which will almost certainly limit the DC retirement plan for senior employees significantly, will pass easily. I compared the hourly and guarantee provisions for junior reserve Captains and F/Os, and it's almost the same pay when you consider the lower hourly rate but higher guarantee (more senior guys and blockholders would be hit harder). The major difference that I see is that senior/older pilots on the UAIR property are getting a HUGE percentage of their monthly pay, sometimes up to 100%, put into their DC plan. The company agreed to this in order to make up for giving away the DB plan, and now it looks like they may be trying to get out of this obligation as well. I do not know what kind of retirement that AW has other than a 401k. It may be better than I anticipate, but I KNOW that it won't be as good as the UAIR DC plan for the senior guys (junior and younger guys aren't as effected, since the percentage of pay that the company puts into their retirement plan is A LOT less). Also, if the company goes chapter 11 again but remains in business, the pilots are far less likely to take a huge hit since their wages are pretty far below average for legacy carriers, and probably about average (if you include SW) for a LCC. ALPA already learned by the DB fiasco (where, since they voluntarily gave it up the new congressional legislation to restore/protect these plans won't apply) that voluntarily giving these big ticket things up has a way of biting them in the backside.
Management is not going to go to pilots and lay out the whole game on the table at once. They're going to roll it out piecemeal so that you can scare about two thirds of the voting membership into voting how management wants. The other third . . . who cares . . . . they'll be gone in the furlough and not permitted to vote in future concessions. 2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3rds and pretty soon you have only a small portion of your original group. A senior guy will sell out anyone one number junior to them. They care only about hanging on as long as possible before the keel breaks . . . and hopefully that'll only occur after they retire. Now that ALPA has sold out scope, look for pressure from the other majors to do the same.
USA320Pilot:USA320Pilot said:
You have never been one to avoid speculation in the past. You don't have a feeling on your opinion of the outsourcing of the aircraft mentioned? I think poster has a valid question, at what point does ALPA stop the outsourcing...
Years ago ALPA (all airlines, not US Airways specifically) drew the line at Jets vs. Turboprops. Then, the line was drawn at 50 seat jets. Now the line seems to be drawn at 70 seat jets. US Airways pilots actions may draw the next ALPA line for all airlines... Will it be at 90 seat jets? 100 seat jets? 120 seat jets?
Great question Michael707767!
Furloughedagain
Senior
I too, concur with Michael707767 and Funguy2.
The industry is watching US Airways now and the decisions that are made today will have vast implications industrywide.
By setting a 70 seat payrate which is below the level of many so-called "regionals" you have inadvertantly re-set the bar for negotiations for those carriers.
US Airways ALPA does not operate in a vacuum. What you do today has implications far beyond your airline. I'm not saying you have to take a knife in the back for the industry -- of course you dont -- but you do have to take into account how your own negotiations impact not only YOUR pilots and YOUR furloughees, but other groups as well.
So yes, it is a valid question. Where is the line between "regional" and "mainline" today -- or, more appropriately, isn't it time to disolve that line completely?
Have you talked to a furloughee lately? Perhaps one who is currently flying a CRJ or an ERJ via Jetsforjobs? Perhaps one who is flying at the "shadow-mainline" as an E170 crewmember.
Our jobs are all the same now. We fly the same city-pairs, into the same high density airports, at the same altitudes, with the same high-tech avionics. There is no difference in the job of a 737 or Airbus pilot and the job of a regional-jet pilot.
Will the US Airways MEC continue to divide the groups until ALPA self-destructs, or will they take the next opportunity to bring all of the flying back in house by negotiating with the company to merge the wholly-owneds into the mainline? Why not? You've already got an "airline-within-an-airline" pay/benefit scale which allows flying to be done profitably by MidAtlantic!
When they come asking for 90 seaters, tell them "absolutely!". Absolutely if you bring all of the flying back in-house and bring the wholly-owneds into the family. When someone is hired by US Airways they will be hired as an RJ First Officer and will be able to spend their entire career at the company. No more will the company be able to operate 10-15 "Express" affiliates in order to whipsaw the group. Make it advantageous for them to bring it in house. You've already given them sub-par wages and benefits at MidAtlantic -- turn it into a positive. END the proliferation of companies that codeshare with multiple-airlines.
One airline. One list. One product.
This could be an opportunity to restore the profession, or it could be a dark chapter in the next volume of "Flying the Line".
Break down the walls gentlemen. Flying an RJ is absolutely no different than flying a Boeing -- and continuing to believe that it is does nothing more than to perpetuate a whipsaw that leaves management with powerful leverage against your careers.
Respectfully,
A furloughee currently doing the same job in a slightly smaller airplane.
The industry is watching US Airways now and the decisions that are made today will have vast implications industrywide.
By setting a 70 seat payrate which is below the level of many so-called "regionals" you have inadvertantly re-set the bar for negotiations for those carriers.
US Airways ALPA does not operate in a vacuum. What you do today has implications far beyond your airline. I'm not saying you have to take a knife in the back for the industry -- of course you dont -- but you do have to take into account how your own negotiations impact not only YOUR pilots and YOUR furloughees, but other groups as well.
So yes, it is a valid question. Where is the line between "regional" and "mainline" today -- or, more appropriately, isn't it time to disolve that line completely?
Have you talked to a furloughee lately? Perhaps one who is currently flying a CRJ or an ERJ via Jetsforjobs? Perhaps one who is flying at the "shadow-mainline" as an E170 crewmember.
Our jobs are all the same now. We fly the same city-pairs, into the same high density airports, at the same altitudes, with the same high-tech avionics. There is no difference in the job of a 737 or Airbus pilot and the job of a regional-jet pilot.
Will the US Airways MEC continue to divide the groups until ALPA self-destructs, or will they take the next opportunity to bring all of the flying back in house by negotiating with the company to merge the wholly-owneds into the mainline? Why not? You've already got an "airline-within-an-airline" pay/benefit scale which allows flying to be done profitably by MidAtlantic!
When they come asking for 90 seaters, tell them "absolutely!". Absolutely if you bring all of the flying back in-house and bring the wholly-owneds into the family. When someone is hired by US Airways they will be hired as an RJ First Officer and will be able to spend their entire career at the company. No more will the company be able to operate 10-15 "Express" affiliates in order to whipsaw the group. Make it advantageous for them to bring it in house. You've already given them sub-par wages and benefits at MidAtlantic -- turn it into a positive. END the proliferation of companies that codeshare with multiple-airlines.
One airline. One list. One product.
This could be an opportunity to restore the profession, or it could be a dark chapter in the next volume of "Flying the Line".
Break down the walls gentlemen. Flying an RJ is absolutely no different than flying a Boeing -- and continuing to believe that it is does nothing more than to perpetuate a whipsaw that leaves management with powerful leverage against your careers.
Respectfully,
A furloughee currently doing the same job in a slightly smaller airplane.
Thanks. Frankly, it amazes me that the USAirways pilots do not see what is going on. Management is nibbling away at the scope. They are already scared the pilots into giving up a 78 seat aircraft to the regionals (the E-170 is certified for 78 seats). Is it a stretch to think that management will not be back for the ability to outsource the 175, 190 and 195? After all they are the same type rating and all the type rated pilots will be at the regionals. And once you open the door to a 110 seat aircraft, next they will be back for the 120 seat 737.funguy2 said:
But again, as someone else pointed out (I forget who, sorry) all you have to do is promise to protect the jobs of 51%. Then once you get rid of more pilots through outsourcing, you only have to protect 51% of what remains.
Frankly, during a time of concessions, the pilots should be moving in the exact opposite direction. Want to cut our pay, fine, but scope moves from 70 seats to 50 seats. Bring in the wholly owned regionals and ultimately get it back to where all flying is done by USAirways.
But, what you have is the senior pilots selling out the junior pilots. I don't know how you can sugar coat it into anything else.
Michael707767
ClueByFour
Veteran
It's like the pension thing in BK. Resident posters urged other groups to take cuts, and then claimed that ALPA was gonn a"shut it down" over the pension issue.funguy2 said:
If/when the 737s leave the property and are replaced with E-190s at/around the E-170 rates, you will hear the screaming commence again in earnest.
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