m&r
- Thread starter av60
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757fixer
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- Aug 20, 2002
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Semantics.
141M was formed as a direct result of US fleet joining IAM. The mechanics were not about to associate themselves with ramp rats. Mechanics circulated plenty of anti-fleet petitions during the campaign.
141M folded when UA mechanics went AMFA and could no longer support themselves financially (ironically, 141 loaned 141M $$$). At that point, IAM still put mechs in 142, rather than restore them to 141.
700, why does IAM divide the membership, rather than unite them?
Because they fear the membership.
Not correct, the Ramp was placed into 141 in 1995, to stop an AMFA raid at NWA, they created a Mechanics only district over there.
In 1999 the M&R membership at 141 voted to start their own district.
141 and 141M had to split the assets, when the building in Burlingame was sold 141 recieved their split, no money was loaned, 141M used the building while 141 moved to Des Plaines, IL.
When UAL M&R went AMFA M&R at US was placed into 142 becuase 142 had mechanics in the district all ready and 141 did not.
In 1999 the M&R membership at 141 voted to start their own district.
141 and 141M had to split the assets, when the building in Burlingame was sold 141 recieved their split, no money was loaned, 141M used the building while 141 moved to Des Plaines, IL.
When UAL M&R went AMFA M&R at US was placed into 142 becuase 142 had mechanics in the district all ready and 141 did not.
Am correct. fleet did not become dues-paying members in good standing (able to vote in local, district and international matters) in 1999. Rampers did not begin showing up in the mech-dominated lodges (or attend district functions) until 1999.
IAM could have put US mechs back in 141 with US fleet. IAM determined to maintain mech purity.
All of which points up to fleet second class citizenship.
IAM could have put US mechs back in 141 with US fleet. IAM determined to maintain mech purity.
All of which points up to fleet second class citizenship.
Rampers attended meetings in CLT which is a M&R dominated local.
142 lost its TWA members so to bolster that district and since it was the only district with m&r left in it, the Intl made the decision to put US M&R into 142.
Mechanic purity?
Guess you did not know the majority of the membership in 142 is CO Flight Attendants?
And WN Agents.
Seems to me you should really educate yourself before you post about something you have no idea about.
142 lost its TWA members so to bolster that district and since it was the only district with m&r left in it, the Intl made the decision to put US M&R into 142.
Mechanic purity?
Guess you did not know the majority of the membership in 142 is CO Flight Attendants?
And WN Agents.
Seems to me you should really educate yourself before you post about something you have no idea about.
CLT rampers attended as guests at the pleasure of the executive board. Have you forgotten? The last order of business before the lodge is opened for union business is the president secures the hall, and clears it of non-members and uninvited guests. The company, the press nor anyone else can attend, unless the executive board ok's it. Securing the hall can entail locking the building to keep folks out during union business, and that happens.
Those rampers could not participate in any lodge function - they could not vote, hold office or sit on committees. Essentially, eunuchs. While CLT may have experienced sweetness and light, other lodges did not - and the district/international knew it, and allowed it. The local in PIT refused to seat fleet after the contract was ratified, forcing fleet to form a separate lodge. Unity, indeed!
IAM could have just as easily decided to restore US mechs to 141 (the district they originated from) as put them in 142.
Why not?
In your own words:
"When UAL M&R went AMFA M&R at US was placed into 142 becuase 142 had mechanics in the district all ready and 141 did not."
Translation: To keep US mechs and US fleet separate. Mechs don't care about f/a's - f/a's can't pushback, fuel, clean or service ground equipment. Fleet can, and that's mech territory. And now we have arrived at the true meaning of the division - $$$
Maybe you need to lay off the kool-aid long enough to experience reality.
Those rampers could not participate in any lodge function - they could not vote, hold office or sit on committees. Essentially, eunuchs. While CLT may have experienced sweetness and light, other lodges did not - and the district/international knew it, and allowed it. The local in PIT refused to seat fleet after the contract was ratified, forcing fleet to form a separate lodge. Unity, indeed!
IAM could have just as easily decided to restore US mechs to 141 (the district they originated from) as put them in 142.
Why not?
In your own words:
"When UAL M&R went AMFA M&R at US was placed into 142 becuase 142 had mechanics in the district all ready and 141 did not."
Translation: To keep US mechs and US fleet separate. Mechs don't care about f/a's - f/a's can't pushback, fuel, clean or service ground equipment. Fleet can, and that's mech territory. And now we have arrived at the true meaning of the division - $$$
Maybe you need to lay off the kool-aid long enough to experience reality.
In CLT they were never asked to leave, they were on Committees, they attended DL 141 Conventions and were sent to Placid Harbor.
And the real story about the forming of local lodge 1044 was your fellow fleet members were disruptive during ALL the union meetings. And that came from 1976 members, ask Delldude, he will tell you all about it.
In PHL and CLT they were not seperated.
142 has mechanics from Hawaian, Aloha, Comair and US Airways, 141 has NO mechanics.
And the local lodge dues and business has nothing to do with CBA enforcement, as that is the District's responsibility.
Maybe you should learn to comprehend from people that lived it, instead of your clear bias towards Mechanic and Related.
And the real story about the forming of local lodge 1044 was your fellow fleet members were disruptive during ALL the union meetings. And that came from 1976 members, ask Delldude, he will tell you all about it.
In PHL and CLT they were not seperated.
142 has mechanics from Hawaian, Aloha, Comair and US Airways, 141 has NO mechanics.
And the local lodge dues and business has nothing to do with CBA enforcement, as that is the District's responsibility.
Maybe you should learn to comprehend from people that lived it, instead of your clear bias towards Mechanic and Related.
And in other lodges, fleet was told they could not sit on committees or hold office until they had been a member in good standing (dues-payer) for a year. And the districts 141 and 141M knew it.
So CLT sweetness and light was worthless to other members, unless you are arguing CLT are more equal pigs.
Regarding the PIT fracture... sooooooo, D141 lacked the skills to mediate an intra-mural scrum? No wonder they get their a$$es handed to them at the negotiating table.
141 had mechanics, and IAM moved them around like the pea in a shell game to keep them away from US fleet. IAM knew how mechanics felt, and rather than educate them ("an injury to one is an injury to all"), IAM catered to them. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea in 1999, but how much better off would IAM, unions in general and the working class be if they'd listened to their better angels?
Your problem with me is I comprehend just fine, and like every other IAM functionary I know, you don't like uppity peasants.
And my bias isn't against m&r, it's against union leadership that sells out the membership.
So CLT sweetness and light was worthless to other members, unless you are arguing CLT are more equal pigs.
Regarding the PIT fracture... sooooooo, D141 lacked the skills to mediate an intra-mural scrum? No wonder they get their a$$es handed to them at the negotiating table.
141 had mechanics, and IAM moved them around like the pea in a shell game to keep them away from US fleet. IAM knew how mechanics felt, and rather than educate them ("an injury to one is an injury to all"), IAM catered to them. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea in 1999, but how much better off would IAM, unions in general and the working class be if they'd listened to their better angels?
Your problem with me is I comprehend just fine, and like every other IAM functionary I know, you don't like uppity peasants.
And my bias isn't against m&r, it's against union leadership that sells out the membership.
The District does not interfere in local lodge matters unless it has to do with the CBA.
I thought you knew the structure.
I guess you did not read any other of the unions bankruptcy CBAs, no one came out smelling like a rose except the IAM represented Maintenance Training Specialists.
Last time I checked the membership ratified the final offers from the company after both CBAs were abrogated.
Let me explain this to you one more time.
At NW there was an AMFA raid, the International decided to split 143 into two districts, one for M&R and the other for the rest of the groups.
An AMFA raided was happening on US property, the 141 Mechanic and Related membership VOTED to split into 141M as the International and the members thought this would better represent the M&R interests and stop the AMFA raid, which it did.
Thus leaving 141 with ramp, ual stores and csas in charge of their own destiny.
This had nothing to do with fleet. And just because you are in a seperate district which is only in charge of negotiating and defending the CBA and had nothing to do with the local lodge regular business. And it gave the opportunity of more people being able to attend district functions as it was not split between fleet and M&R anymore.
Why dont you learn the real events that happened instead of your own version of the facts?
I thought you knew the structure.
I guess you did not read any other of the unions bankruptcy CBAs, no one came out smelling like a rose except the IAM represented Maintenance Training Specialists.
Last time I checked the membership ratified the final offers from the company after both CBAs were abrogated.
Let me explain this to you one more time.
At NW there was an AMFA raid, the International decided to split 143 into two districts, one for M&R and the other for the rest of the groups.
An AMFA raided was happening on US property, the 141 Mechanic and Related membership VOTED to split into 141M as the International and the members thought this would better represent the M&R interests and stop the AMFA raid, which it did.
Thus leaving 141 with ramp, ual stores and csas in charge of their own destiny.
This had nothing to do with fleet. And just because you are in a seperate district which is only in charge of negotiating and defending the CBA and had nothing to do with the local lodge regular business. And it gave the opportunity of more people being able to attend district functions as it was not split between fleet and M&R anymore.
Why dont you learn the real events that happened instead of your own version of the facts?
"The District does not interfere in local lodge matters unless it has to do with the CBA."
Afraid not. International/district changes the dues take without any by-your-leave from the locals, imposes mandates onto the locals without any by-your-leave, and imposes their audit requirements onto locals without any by-your-leave. The district recently shifted enough reporting responsibilities from locals to districts that some locals terminated their secretaries.
None of which has an iota to do with the CBA.
"I guess you did not read any other of the unions bankruptcy CBAs, no one came out smelling like a rose except the IAM represented Maintenance Training Specialists."
The company ain't in BK now, and the best the IAM could negotiate just got shot down in flames by lowly rampers.
"An AMFA raided was happening on US property, the 141 Mechanic and Related membership VOTED to split into 141M as the International and the members thought this would better represent the M&R interests and stop the AMFA raid, which it did.
"
The attraction to AMFA was they were a mechanic union only (no rampers allowed) which appealed to US m&r. This makes two things immediately obvious. IAM represented m&r for decades, and allowed this elitist attitude to thrive. When push came to shove, IAM catered to those fears, rather than educate their membership. 700UW, kindly explain the wisdom of divided membership, and why such an elitist,anti-union, anti-membership notion was allowed.
Afraid not. International/district changes the dues take without any by-your-leave from the locals, imposes mandates onto the locals without any by-your-leave, and imposes their audit requirements onto locals without any by-your-leave. The district recently shifted enough reporting responsibilities from locals to districts that some locals terminated their secretaries.
None of which has an iota to do with the CBA.
"I guess you did not read any other of the unions bankruptcy CBAs, no one came out smelling like a rose except the IAM represented Maintenance Training Specialists."
The company ain't in BK now, and the best the IAM could negotiate just got shot down in flames by lowly rampers.
"An AMFA raided was happening on US property, the 141 Mechanic and Related membership VOTED to split into 141M as the International and the members thought this would better represent the M&R interests and stop the AMFA raid, which it did.
"
The attraction to AMFA was they were a mechanic union only (no rampers allowed) which appealed to US m&r. This makes two things immediately obvious. IAM represented m&r for decades, and allowed this elitist attitude to thrive. When push came to shove, IAM catered to those fears, rather than educate their membership. 700UW, kindly explain the wisdom of divided membership, and why such an elitist,anti-union, anti-membership notion was allowed.
The International made the changes to the reports due to the new regulations from the labor deparment, the International had new software developed to simplify the process of the DOL mandated reports.
The Landrum-Griffith Act is the law that mandates what reports are done by each level of a union, which is enforced by the DOL.
The Dues Structure is set by the International, and the District. The way dues are calculated are voted upon by each local under the five differant ways under the Constitution. I think I know how it is done since I have been a Trustee and a Recording Secretary.
The District gets their money first from the company as it is in the CBA and the District sends the rest to the locals, and the locals send the International their portion.
I guess you dont understand the company is under NO obligation to make any improvements to the CBA, all they have to do is negotiate the transition of the west to the east cba.
Guess you never sat across from the table in negotiations, you cant get blood from a stone and the union is not in Section 6 Negotiations, therefore no threat from a strike.
For the longest time before the DOT under Elizabeth Dole let the outsourcing of maintenance the M&R was the largest part of the Transportation Dept, under the IAM. With all the organizing, US and UAL, AMFA played upon the M&R that the IAM was not representing their best interests. So when the big threat came at NWA, they International came up with the idea of seperate districts, not seperate locals.
It did not divide the membership, it meant mechanic and related represented mechanic and related and fleet represented fleet.
Just like fleet did not like mechanics negotiating their first CBA, so then when the districts split you had all your own classification representing and negotiating for you.
And if you read AMFA's constitution, they are not m&r only, they do have fleet mentioned in it.
The members wanted the seperation, guess you dont remember what happened in PHL when the 141 Mechanic AGCs had the first agreement meeting.
I for one voted against the seperation, but bottom line the International was looking out for its dues money in my opinion.
But once again the membership were the ones that voted on it and passed the seperation of districts.
The District does not run local lodges, they are in charge of the CBA.
The Landrum-Griffith Act is the law that mandates what reports are done by each level of a union, which is enforced by the DOL.
The Dues Structure is set by the International, and the District. The way dues are calculated are voted upon by each local under the five differant ways under the Constitution. I think I know how it is done since I have been a Trustee and a Recording Secretary.
The District gets their money first from the company as it is in the CBA and the District sends the rest to the locals, and the locals send the International their portion.
I guess you dont understand the company is under NO obligation to make any improvements to the CBA, all they have to do is negotiate the transition of the west to the east cba.
Guess you never sat across from the table in negotiations, you cant get blood from a stone and the union is not in Section 6 Negotiations, therefore no threat from a strike.
For the longest time before the DOT under Elizabeth Dole let the outsourcing of maintenance the M&R was the largest part of the Transportation Dept, under the IAM. With all the organizing, US and UAL, AMFA played upon the M&R that the IAM was not representing their best interests. So when the big threat came at NWA, they International came up with the idea of seperate districts, not seperate locals.
It did not divide the membership, it meant mechanic and related represented mechanic and related and fleet represented fleet.
Just like fleet did not like mechanics negotiating their first CBA, so then when the districts split you had all your own classification representing and negotiating for you.
And if you read AMFA's constitution, they are not m&r only, they do have fleet mentioned in it.
The members wanted the seperation, guess you dont remember what happened in PHL when the 141 Mechanic AGCs had the first agreement meeting.
I for one voted against the seperation, but bottom line the International was looking out for its dues money in my opinion.
But once again the membership were the ones that voted on it and passed the seperation of districts.
The District does not run local lodges, they are in charge of the CBA.
brokenwrench
Senior
The AMFA did not raid anyone. "Raid" is an IAM buzzword to soften the blow of why it has LOST members. If the IAM had served the interests of its members there would never have been grass roots organizing at those carriers to dump the IAM. The AMFA is not perfect but it sure seems that the majority of AMT'S in this industry have decided by way of open elections that it is better than the IAM.
