Negotiations........why?

[1AA]

I think fleet as SW is the highest paid. And they are TWU.

And the AMT'S are not TWU and they are at the top if not the top paid. Thanks you just made a point to get rid of the TWU. I knew eventually you would see the truth.

 

[Overspeed]

1AA,
Nope. Exactly the opposite. AMFA hasn't fared any better than the TWU. They are both the highest paid airline workers and the industrial union did just as well as the "professional craft union" in the same negotiating environment.

 

[Zom JFK]

Wrong. SWA has a completely different culture than AA. They value their employees. AA..... not so much.

 

[Overspeed]

ZOM JFK,
The point was not about the culture at SW. The point is that two unions - one industrial, the other a "professional craft union" - at the same airline are both the highest paid airline workers in their class and craft. The few times AMFA - the "professional craft union" - has gone toe to toe at a major airline under and adversarial relationship what happened? Well, they don't represent those members anymore.
 
When AMFA is on equal footing they don't do any better than an industrial union at a financially profitable company. Put them in a adversarial environment and they end up with...no jobs and no members.
 
Now, as far as what will happen here at AA with the Association I don't know but I trust the Association to do far better than the inaction on the JCBA at UA/CO.

 

[scorpion 2]

ZOM JFK,
The point was not about the culture at SW. The point is that two unions - one industrial, the other a "professional craft union" - at the same airline are both the highest paid airline workers in their class and craft. The few times AMFA - the "professional craft union" - has gone toe to toe at a major airline under and adversarial relationship what happened? Well, they don't represent those members anymore.
 
When AMFA is on equal footing they don't do any better than an industrial union at a financially profitable company. Put them in a adversarial environment and they end up with...no jobs and no members.
 
Now, as far as what will happen here at AA with the Association I don't know but I trust the Association to do far better than the inaction on the JCBA at UA/CO.

The twu on equal footing has always given the corporation an edge when it comes to contracts. Before the days of outsourcing and the laws mandated doing maintenance in country the twu still gave an edge. This corporate friendly approach is what tipped over the first outsourcing domino. When other unions refused to match the twu's concessions starting in 83 the other airlines had to make up the difference by finding cheaper ways to get their aircraft maintained. Now we are all paying the piper for the twu's failures and you continue to drink rot gut twu koolaid. How can any union compete with the twu walmart union doctrines,,, (NOBODY CAN BEAT OUR CONCESSIONS).  

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

The TWU has always low balled the mechanics, while the Fleet has been at the top of their pay scale.

Seriously?
 
Are we still on that?
 
You guys just never learn do you?

Maybe if you concentrated on getting a UNION that was worth a damn and changing the employee culture at American Airlines instead of blaming Fleet Service for all of your problems your situation might improve.
 
I swear since September 11th everyone went into backstabber survival mode and never came out of it.
 
Grow up.

 

[Overspeed]

Scorpion2,
What outsourcing to foreign countries was done by AA under a TWU CBA when it was illegal under laws prohibiting it? What "edge" are you speaking of? Some details please. The B scale came in 1983 but outsourcing existed before that and most airlines did the work in-house. B scale was not a TWU invention and as has been stated before - AMFA lawyer bragged about bringing it in at the APA when other airlines had not even done that. Your AMFA legal counsel Martin Seham (Lee's daddy) brought B scale in to the airline industry, not the TWU. M. Seham brags about it as one of his accomplishments.

 

[scorpion 2]

Scorpion2,
What outsourcing to foreign countries was done by AA under a TWU CBA when it was illegal under laws prohibiting it? What "edge" are you speaking of? Some details please. The B scale came in 1983 but outsourcing existed before that and most airlines did the work in-house. B scale was not a TWU invention and as has been stated before - AMFA lawyer bragged about bringing it in at the APA when other airlines had not even done that. Your AMFA legal counsel Martin Seham (Lee's daddy) brought B scale in to the airline industry, not the TWU. M. Seham brags about it as one of his accomplishments.

Before the laws changed the twu was the first to introduce B scale to the ground workers. The first to introduce C scale to the ground workers. All before the laws changed that allowed maintenance to foreign countries. The first to have a bump progression instead of actually lowering the 12 year top out and I don't know of anyone else that had a 12 year progression. The first to introduce an in house outsourcing classification called an SRP.  The industry leader in giving concessions outside of bankruptcy and giving larger ones to corporations than unions did in bankruptcy. I guess the twu liked what they saw in Seham since they apparently followed his lead. All of these industry firsts for the twu represented GROUND workers had their ripple affect on every other airline ground worker. It painted a huge bulls eye on them because of the twu's corporate friendly tactics. The other airlines Northwest in particular lobbied to get the laws changed because they were facing unions members that wouldn't follow in the twu's footsteps. Let the outsourcing begin. Thanks twu!

 

[Overspeed]

Scorpion2,
I disagree with your recollection of 1983 and the introduction of the B scale. If you recall Lorenzo was on his airline empire building quest and super low cost carriers like People's Express introduced the D scale (if you there was anyway to go lower in pay and benefits). Ever hear of the VEP? Variable Earnings Plan? It was introduced at EAL in 1977 and brought adjustable pay raises (and decreases if the company lost money) that were in the contract. That was way before the 1983 TWU B scale (we can call that the E scale).  How about the BK at CAL at that time the biggest airline BK and the associated union busting that went on? Was that the TWU's fault as well driving down wages, eliminating pensions, and outsourcing on a scale never seen before in the industry? No. Did the TWU start the slide down on compensation for the airlines? No.
 
So the TWU started the outsourcing and concession train? No way. That was in progress almost right after deregulation. Financially weak airlines, ones that adapted poorly (Pan Am, Continental, and Eastern), and the huge influx of under funded new entrants brought down your standard of living. Deregulation worked for the consumer as they fare dropped to unprecedented levels but we subsidized those fares with our wages, benefits, and in many cases our jobs.
 
Now we are in a new consolidated environment with financially viable airlines. I believe the Association can get us on the road back to restoring airline workers to the top rung of labor pay scales. The time is now for us to be on the same page. Time to move on and move forward and up.

 

[scorpion 2]

Scorpion2,
I disagree with your recollection of 1983 and the introduction of the B scale. If you recall Lorenzo was on his airline empire building quest and super low cost carriers like People's Express introduced the D scale (if you there was anyway to go lower in pay and benefits). Ever hear of the VEP? Variable Earnings Plan? It was introduced at EAL in 1977 and brought adjustable pay raises (and decreases if the company lost money) that were in the contract. That was way before the 1983 TWU B scale (we can call that the E scale).  How about the BK at CAL at that time the biggest airline BK and the associated union busting that went on? Was that the TWU's fault as well driving down wages, eliminating pensions, and outsourcing on a scale never seen before in the industry? No. Did the TWU start the slide down on compensation for the airlines? No.
 
So the TWU started the outsourcing and concession train? No way. That was in progress almost right after deregulation. Financially weak airlines, ones that adapted poorly (Pan Am, Continental, and Eastern), and the huge influx of under funded new entrants brought down your standard of living. Deregulation worked for the consumer as they fare dropped to unprecedented levels but we subsidized those fares with our wages, benefits, and in many cases our jobs.
 
Now we are in a new consolidated environment with financially viable airlines. I believe the Association can get us on the road back to restoring airline workers to the top rung of labor pay scales. The time is now for us to be on the same page. Time to move on and move forward and up.

So now that you got down on your knees and measured all the industrial unions junk which of those concessions can be attributed to a craft union?

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Scorpion2,
I disagree with your recollection of 1983 and the introduction of the B scale. If you recall Lorenzo was on his airline empire building quest and super low cost carriers like People's Express introduced the D scale (if you there was anyway to go lower in pay and benefits). Ever hear of the VEP? Variable Earnings Plan? It was introduced at EAL in 1977 and brought adjustable pay raises (and decreases if the company lost money) that were in the contract. That was way before the 1983 TWU B scale (we can call that the E scale).  How about the BK at CAL at that time the biggest airline BK and the associated union busting that went on? Was that the TWU's fault as well driving down wages, eliminating pensions, and outsourcing on a scale never seen before in the industry? No. Did the TWU start the slide down on compensation for the airlines? No.
 
So the TWU started the outsourcing and concession train? No way. That was in progress almost right after deregulation. Financially weak airlines, ones that adapted poorly (Pan Am, Continental, and Eastern), and the huge influx of under funded new entrants brought down your standard of living. Deregulation worked for the consumer as they fare dropped to unprecedented levels but we subsidized those fares with our wages, benefits, and in many cases our jobs.
 
Now we are in a new consolidated environment with financially viable airlines. I believe the Association can get us on the road back to restoring airline workers to the top rung of labor pay scales. The time is now for us to be on the same page. Time to move on and move forward and up.

 
 
what a great diversion of taking any blame to the destruction of our careers.  the TWU is the "Leading concessionary union" that is a proven fact with all the concessionary contracts. Whether it is good times or bad times the TWU some how finds a way to give concessions.  Lets see with the JCBA what concessions are attached to the contract while the company is making billions?    I guarantee there will be concessions!!!

 

[Deleted member 14439]

The company is already offering the Delta +7%. They are also on record as stating the "goodwill" Dec 23 2014 4% would be in addition to that. So that`s 11% ish that we are being offered BEFORE we ever get into the room with them. The presentation we had showed the great twu is going in asking for Delta +14%. Breaking it down in simple terms the twu is going in asking for whopping 3% raise. Nice.

 

[dfw gen]

The company is already offering the Delta +7%. They are also on record as stating the "goodwill" Dec 23 2014 4% would be in addition to that. So that`s 11% ish that we are being offered BEFORE we ever get into the room with them. The presentation we had showed the great twu is going in asking for Delta +14%. Breaking it down in simple terms the twu is going in asking for whopping 3% raise. Nice.

what else are they asking for? 

 

[Overspeed]

Scorpion2,
The greatest concession of them all. Outsourcing damn near everything. NWA did it and proved outsourcing line and base MX could be done if management plans well and uses the craft union hubris to their advantage. Now we have Wroble here at AA with all the experience of how to do it he learned from the NWA/AMFA experience. Thanks "professional craft union" AMFA. Thanks for everything.

 

[Vortilon]

Scorpion2,
The greatest concession of them all. Outsourcing damn near everything. NWA did it and proved outsourcing line and base MX could be done if management plans well and uses the craft union hubris to their advantage. Now we have Wroble here at AA with all the experience of how to do it he learned from the NWA/AMFA experience. Thanks "professional craft union" AMFA. Thanks for everything.

 
The outsourcing at NWA started under the IAMs watch - long before the AMFA was on the property.