Answer me this... what if the management team you are negotiating with says "take it or we will file BK and you'll be worst off " and you know they will file. Then what?? How do you manage to get "me toos and snapbacks with a gun to your head??? Call their bluff ?? Would BK have been better??? Maybe the judge would have given us snapbacks and more goodies. Did US or UAL get snapbacks in BK??
NMB Ingores APFA
- Thread starter upsilon
- Start date
Exactly. Same question: Did employees at NW get snapbacks while in Ch 11 as part of their concessions? How about DL pilots?
CO employees took voluntary concessions (like at AA) a few years ago. Any of their contracts contain snapbacks?
Did any unionized legacy airline employees get snapbacks in their concessionary contracts during the past decade?
My position has always been the APFA should have negotiated in the press. They allowed the company to set the value of the concessions, received no credit for those already furloughed, and given the "required" date of completion should have know there was something in the SEC filing that would have changed hte vote. They refused to look at alternate proposals. Once again, value is established at the time an item is negotiated. From what I have been told (from pretty reliable sources) the APFA cannot produce the negotiating notes from prior contracts that establish intent and value. The company wants the defined benefit plans. They wanted them back in 2003. They will get them now. If AA goes into bk the plans will probably go to the PBGC. F/as will do ok but the pilots will sell their first and second born to protect their pensions. They will be screwed. That is why you get so much pressure from "the boys" to knuckle under and "sign on the line". I don't think in 2003 there was a valid threat of BK. I think it was posturing on the part of the company to get concession. The APFA did what it always does..."this is how we do it at AA". They negotiated from a vindictive place and not from the "brain". All bets are off with this round. If bk is the only way to get the pensions, well....
jersey777
Veteran
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 627
- Reaction score
- 73
One thing comes to mind here....You have never dealt with AA management in any aspect whatsoever. All the points you have made come from someone who is on the outside looking in. Management at this company is nothing like TWA's management. Two totally different companies. WHAT WORKED (or didnt work) AT TWA WONT WORK HERE. You have no idea what it is like sitting across from this management team. You seem to forget, APFA has done a lot of good for it's members . The times we are in today are like no other times. The whole nation is against unions. This fight is a tough one but with our unity we will prevail, just like we did in 1993.
Why don't you ask Lloyd Hill how that worked out for the APA.
The pilots tried the scorched earth, trench warfare approach to publicly viscerally bashing Arpey and management, "negotiating" not only in the press but also directly to the public (no doubt many here saw the billboards on 183 south of DFW), for several years.
Guess what? It got them absolutely nowhere - except in the exact same place as the APFA is: still with an open contract, and with the NMB convinced that the unions are un-serious and out of touch with reality. The new, more rational, leader of the APA said as much himself a few months back:
We told the whole world that we didn't know or care how much our demands cost. We said we didn't care what was going on with the economy or with the corporation's economics. We didn't consult with professional negotiators. We abandoned working within established industry protocols and severed ties with management.
These are some of the reasons the NMB and the United States government put APA in recess. The NMB told us to clean up our act. They told us that it does matter how much our "demands" cost, to quit bickering over internal governance and that we needed a leader who was empowered to make decisions. They were clear that APA's radical rhetoric had isolated us and that APA did not have many friends in Washington.
The reason why private-sector unionism is steadily dying in the United States is because unions have stopped demonstrating their value to workers. Many people no longer see the need to fork over a portion of their pay check each week and don't feel that the "protection" they get in return is worth it - they prefer keeping all of the money and coming and going if they don't like the deal they get from their employer. And before anyone says that the airline industry is different, let us dispense with that misconception by looking at some of the fastest-growing and most successful U.S. carriers today, many of which are primarily or entirely non-union. As I have said before, unions serve a purpose and have a place in our capitalist system, but until they can demonstrate their value both to employees and the consumers who finance them, they will not be sustainable.
Only my opinion - which I know is worth nothing, especially here on this forum - but I think Laura Glading would be very wise to stop trying to make the disagreements between the APFA and AMR into some larger moral crusade about the state of the American worker. When national unemployment remains at a seemingly-structural 9.5%, and when you have literally thousands upon thousands of other flight attendants flying around U.S. skies who make far less than AA flight attendants, that just seems ridiculous, and I suspect will do absolutely nothing to advance the union's cause in the court of public opinion, or with the NMB.
Hello there and I like your post. I am positive that if it was not for the APFA, we would all be making $10 an hour and the executive bonuses would be triple!
It's so easy for the Gladding haters so sit back and criticize let their delusions run wild...
As more and more states strip public workers of their bargaining rights, perhaps opinions will swing more on our side. I do agree with you about the moral crusade. It's a great idea.
What is going to be interesting is how UA will integrate their FA's pay with CO's. CO's FA's just voted in a new contract with wages and benefits much, much higher than those at UA. As the two combine work forces, I can't imagine UA's Fa's work for for any less. Same goes for the mechanics... NW is paid much lower still than DL FA's.... The comparisons will change as work forces merge. That will be interesting to watch.
galleyguy4u2
Senior
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2003
- Messages
- 313
- Reaction score
- 2
Laura and Anne Lowe cannot bargain their way out of a toliet. Bargaining begins with people who are competent. Laura and J.W. gave away the store. Where is the me too......oh, they forgot about that. APFA y'all are so out of touch.
southwind
Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 7,709
- Reaction score
- 3,928
southwind
Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 7,709
- Reaction score
- 3,928
Delta would be more than happy to pay the NW FA's what DL FA's make.....................as soon as the union decide to stop their b!tchin' and moanin', take their defeat on their feet instead of their knees and leave the premises. They've been voted down more than once at DL..........................can't they take a hint ?
I guess until then, DL will pay them what the NW FA's union negotiated for , in their contract ! :blink:
You also forget that you now have "our" mangt. on "your" negotiating team. I negotiate against the State of Missouri and I have a 97% win record. Arrogant, no, I LOVE negotiating and it is something I'm very good at (which is good for the people I represent). I was making the point about 2003. Unfortunately, I think restore and more, will not even be maintain and sustain. I think a huge opportunity was missed in 2003 (the pilots were way more afraid of losing defined benefit which drove their decision) because as important as we think the f/as are, a no vote from us would have been an honest reflextion of the membership will. Instead, there were too many questions about how the reopened votes were counted. Onl;y "YES" comes to mind. This round is different because of the continuing bad economy and fuel cost. I don't HATE the APFA. I don't like how it is run, the lack of inclusion and most importantly the lack of preparation and ability to think beyond, "we've always done it this way".
Got it...
Lets see.... During the last 8 yrs or so most airline employees took very big benefit cuts. American employees included but if you look at things from a different view, I'd like to point out that the APFA was able to retain it's members pensions, maintain a pretty good hourly rate ( including incentive/international pay ) and keep a good bidding system. Our vacation and sick time took a hit but we still receive full credit for both.
So being said, I think the APFA did a pretty good job in keeping AA F/As a good contract. Yes maybe the restructuring agreement vote was played with but I'm sure we sit much better today . A no vote would have meant goodbye to all we know today. Go APFA !!!
It could have been structured a lot better. Less loss to the f/as if credit for all concessions were properly calculated. And yes, I remember it well. My contribution was 100%.
Similar threads
- Locked
