NMB Ingores APFA

[damajagua]

I completely agree. What is there to discuss? Only frustration? I think people are just steeped in reality of the economy and the companies precarious situation. My thought now is that we are going to have to look to the pilots. Historically they have always led the tone of negotiations and this is proving to be true in this round. They have meetings scheduled with the company through June. We will have to wait and see the outcome from them. My prediction is that we will not have a contract till the end of the summer 2012. There I said it.

The only reason the company is negotiating with the pilots outside of mediation is because eveything that they
are currently negotiating has no monetary value. They are dealing with articles of the contract with no monetary
value. Wait and see when its time to get to the real issues; it will stall just like all the other unions in the property.
My prediction there will be no agreement with ANY of the unions until United has settle all their contracts, Delta is fully
integrated and maybe then we might come to some kind of agreement. The other option would be to have a
bankruptcy judge settle the contracts. I just do not see any other way. Most employees still think we are going to get
30 or 50% raises...........plus retro, etc, etc............It seems like most are on a cruise down a river call DENIAL!!!!

 

[Imjustsayin]

Why don't you ask Lloyd Hill how that worked out for the APA.

The pilots tried the scorched earth, trench warfare approach to publicly viscerally bashing Arpey and management, "negotiating" not only in the press but also directly to the public (no doubt many here saw the billboards on 183 south of DFW), for several years.

Guess what? It got them absolutely nowhere - except in the exact same place as the APFA is: still with an open contract, and with the NMB convinced that the unions are un-serious and out of touch with reality. The new, more rational, leader of the APA said as much himself a few months back:

We told the whole world that we didn't know or care how much our demands cost. We said we didn't care what was going on with the economy or with the corporation's economics. We didn't consult with professional negotiators. We abandoned working within established industry protocols and severed ties with management.

These are some of the reasons the NMB and the United States government put APA in recess. The NMB told us to clean up our act. They told us that it does matter how much our "demands" cost, to quit bickering over internal governance and that we needed a leader who was empowered to make decisions. They were clear that APA's radical rhetoric had isolated us and that APA did not have many friends in Washington.



The reason why private-sector unionism is steadily dying in the United States is because unions have stopped demonstrating their value to workers. Many people no longer see the need to fork over a portion of their pay check each week and don't feel that the "protection" they get in return is worth it - they prefer keeping all of the money and coming and going if they don't like the deal they get from their employer. And before anyone says that the airline industry is different, let us dispense with that misconception by looking at some of the fastest-growing and most successful U.S. carriers today, many of which are primarily or entirely non-union. As I have said before, unions serve a purpose and have a place in our capitalist system, but until they can demonstrate their value both to employees and the consumers who finance them, they will not be sustainable.

Only my opinion - which I know is worth nothing, especially here on this forum - but I think Laura Glading would be very wise to stop trying to make the disagreements between the APFA and AMR into some larger moral crusade about the state of the American worker. When national unemployment remains at a seemingly-structural 9.5%, and when you have literally thousands upon thousands of other flight attendants flying around U.S. skies who make far less than AA flight attendants, that just seems ridiculous, and I suspect will do absolutely nothing to advance the union's cause in the court of public opinion, or with the NMB.

AFPA/Gladding are WASTING their, and their flight attendant's, time, energy and MONEY on SOPHMORIC public campaigns that NOONE cares about.

 

[jersey777]

AFPA/Gladding are WASTING their, and their flight attendant's, time, energy and MONEY on SOPHMORIC public campaigns that NOONE cares about.

I agree it is a big waste of time but it is anything but sophomoric. I know you probably don't believe in standing up for what you believe and most likely are a "yes" man in your career. However, I have the utmost respect for those that take a stand and do something about it!

 

[Imjustsayin]

I agree it is a big waste of time but it is anything but sophomoric. I know you probably don't believe in standing up for what you believe and most likely are a "yes" man in your career. However, I have the utmost respect for those that take a stand and do something about it!

Nope, never be accused of being a yes man. Did you see the APFA's "PAX for PAX" campaign? Uh, yes, sophmoric - and laughable. If I were in that union I would be asking for my dues back.

 

[jersey777]

Nope, never be accused of being a yes man. Did you see the APFA's "PAX for PAX" campaign? Uh, yes, sophmoric - and laughable. If I were in that union I would be asking for my dues back.

To be honest, I don't even remember this campaign that well so I can't comment. The APFA is a group of members with the same goals and that is to ensure the best working conditions and pay for its flight attendants. It is not a perfect entity and there will always be different ideas of how to reach those goals. For you to continue to use the words "sophomoric" and "laughable" to describe the APFA's approach makes me think that you don't think we should do anything besides sit in silence. Let me ask YOU something. Try to tell me what good the APFA has done and how it should proceed. My guess is that you are going to say you don't believe in unions so what is the point. If that is the case then who cares what you think.

 

[Imjustsayin]

To be honest, I don't even remember this campaign that well so I can't comment. The APFA is a group of members with the same goals and that is to ensure the best working conditions and pay for its flight attendants. It is not a perfect entity and there will always be different ideas of how to reach those goals. For you to continue to use the words "sophomoric" and "laughable" to describe the APFA's approach makes me think that you don't think we should do anything besides sit in silence. Let me ask YOU something. Try to tell me what good the APFA has done and how it should proceed. My guess is that you are going to say you don't believe in unions so what is the point. If that is the case then who cares what you think.

I was following up on what a previous poster had said...

("The pilots tried the scorched earth, trench warfare approach to publicly viscerally bashing Arpey and management, "negotiating" not only in the press but also directly to the public (no doubt many here saw the billboards on 183 south of DFW), for several years.

Guess what? It got them absolutely nowhere - except in the exact same place as the APFA is: still with an open contract, and with the NMB convinced that the unions are un-serious and out of touch with reality. The new, more rational, leader of the APA said as much himself a few months back")

How should the APFA proceed, you asked? Maybe by reevaluating its strategy - and leadership?

 

[Veritas]

From the NewAPFA discussion group:

To: APFA Officers, Chairs, Vice Chairs, Ad Hocs, Negotiators
From: XXXXXXXXXXX, Negotiator

All –

Our interests and values have been truly tested by President Laura Glading and her administration; she has time and time again gone against APFA Policy and Constitution.

I respectfully ask to be placed on the agenda for the next EC / Board of Directors meeting to address the topic of negotiations, and to seek an immediate internal remedy. I respectfully request that that meeting be scheduled for this week. It is in the best interests of APFA if that we meet as expeditiously as possible.

This is but a thumbnail sketch of a few of the events that cause me grave concern: Most concerning, is a series of events beginning Tuesday, 5 April 2011, when the "6% solution" was turned down and "true" negotiations began. It culminated with the narrow escape of a concessionary contract on Friday, 8 April 2011.

These events include, but are not limited to: an "almost TA" that did not contained any sort of retro pay, raised the schedule max, and provided a whole host of concessions that gave the company everything that they failed to take during restructuring in 2003.

This "offered TA", if accepted by the company, was done in the worst haste, with no cost outs numbers to show the millions of dollars of concessionary givebacks.

When this so called, "Mediator's Proposal," was forced upon the entire team by Laura, the lack of adequate details was appalling.

I would also like to address the "6% solution", its origin and the skullduggery surrounding it. The "6% solution" and its events will pale in comparison to the events of this past week, when the facts become known.

Truth is a perilous commodity, but so is ignorance. Ms. Glading would like all of us to remain in ignorance. President Glading's leadership has now almost resulted in disaster, twice, in a month. Most of us are completely unaware because of the selective way in which the APFA Board is informed of these events.

Ms. Glading fails to inform, she never attempts consensus, and she uses a "Strategic Committee" outside of policy and the APFA Constitution, to dictate her wishes and attempt to make them law.

If we are true to the membership, who elected us, then we must all ask questions and understand the events of the past weeks and months then, together, find a collective solution that we can work with in unity.

Barack Obama recently said, "… leadership is not simply a matter of going it alone … Real leadership creates the conditions and coalitions for others to step up as well; to work with allies and partners … "

In closing, let me reiterate, it is my sincere hope and desire to find an internal remedy to the problems created by President Glading's leadership and her policy of ignoring and disenfranchising negotiating team members. I fear that President Glading will continue to imperil these negotiations with her fears and her policies of withholding information from both her negotiating team and the APFA Board, while she seeks her own concessionary ends.

In unity,

xxxxxxxxx
Negotiator

 

[jersey777]

From the NewAPFA discussion group:

​

I really hate when people publish unsigned letters. That being said, this letter just goes against what "Imjustsayin" and the rest of the general public think...that Laura Glading is some kind of out of touch hard ass. It would be safe to say that she is seen by many within the union as being soft and concessionary as this letter proves. I would like to find out more about exactly what happened the last week or so regarding reaching a settlement...appearantly without the full negotiating team involved.

 

[commavia]

I really hate when people publish unsigned letters. That being said, this letter just goes against what "Imjustsayin" and the rest of the general public think...that Laura Glading is some kind of out of touch hard ass. It would be safe to say that she is seen by many within the union as being soft and concessionary as this letter proves. I would like to find out more about exactly what happened the last week or so regarding reaching a settlement...appearantly without the full negotiating team involved.

Whether you think it is fair or not, I think it would be accurate to say that the general perception of Laura Glading among many (including at least some elements of the media, the flying public, other AA employees, and perhaps even the NMB) is that Laura Glading is, in fact, rather out of touch. I think she is just being a politician, but that's another story.

Nonetheless, as you said, regardless of whether the above assessment is fair or not, it is remarkable how different one's view of the situation - and Ms. Glading - can be depending on one's perspective. Many outside the union see her as out of touch with reality, and you suggest that many within the union see her as "soft and concessionary."

That is interesting.

 

[Maark767]

Whether you think it is fair or not, I think it would be accurate to say that the general perception of Laura Glading among many (including at least some elements of the media, the flying public, other AA employees, and perhaps even the NMB) is that Laura Glading is, in fact, rather out of touch. I think she is just being a politician, but that's another story.

Nonetheless, as you said, regardless of whether the above assessment is fair or not, it is remarkable how different one's view of the situation - and Ms. Glading - can be depending on one's perspective. Many outside the union see her as out of touch with reality, and you suggest that many within the union see her as "soft and concessionary."

That is interesting.

When will people learn that AA will not settle until it's ready. Does not matter who is our union president !!!... Have any of our other unions settled ??? No....
We will get a contract when management wants to give us one ....

 

[commavia]

When will people learn that AA will not settle until it's ready. Does not matter who is our union president !!!... Have any of our other unions settled ??? No....
We will get a contract when management wants to give us one ....

I thought you guys got a vote in the matter eventually?

(I know, I know, I'm walking into the obligatory reply about the "rigged" '03 vote. 🙂)

 

[commavia]

When will people learn that AA will not settle until it's ready. Does not matter who is our union president !!!... Have any of our other unions settled ??? No....
We will get a contract when management wants to give us one ....

I thought you guys got a vote in the matter eventually?

(I know, I know, I'm walking into the obligatory reply about the "rigged" '03 vote. 🙂)

 

[Imjustsayin]

Whether you think it is fair or not, I think it would be accurate to say that the general perception of Laura Glading among many (including at least some elements of the media, the flying public, other AA employees, and perhaps even the NMB) is that Laura Glading is, in fact, rather out of touch. I think she is just being a politician, but that's another story.

Nonetheless, as you said, regardless of whether the above assessment is fair or not, it is remarkable how different one's view of the situation - and Ms. Glading - can be depending on one's perspective. Many outside the union see her as out of touch with reality, and you suggest that many within the union see her as "soft and concessionary."

That is interesting.

Oh and have you seen her latest union time and dues wasting exercise - the "idictment" of AMR management?
Here's what some of the posters on Fort Worth Star Telegrams Sky Talk had to say:

"This is the kind of garbage that really makes our flight attendant union look childish, foolish, and completely out of touch with reality. It is truly a disservice to dues paying members to spend hours coming up with stupid slogans and campaigns when we expect leadership to be working with management to iron out a contract that is palatable on both ends. My solidarity is shot!"

Posted by: Fed up with the APFA | April 14, 2011 at 01:32 PM

"This is embarrassing! The APFA is continuing to show its ignorance and inflexibility in negotiating a contract by further spewing incomprehensible rhetoric and debasing the very airline they depend upon."

Posted by: youfly | April 14, 2011 at 02:00 PM

"Gee whiz...Judge Judy would be so proud!"

Posted by: Kate | April 14, 2011 at 09:10 PM

Read more: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2011/04/latest-apfa-campaign-indicts-american-executives.html#ixzz1JbNPh8Pi

 

[jersey777]

Oh and have you seen her latest union time and dues wasting exercise - the "idictment" of AMR management?
Here's what some of the posters on Fort Worth Star Telegrams Sky Talk had to say:

"This is the kind of garbage that really makes our flight attendant union look childish, foolish, and completely out of touch with reality. It is truly a disservice to dues paying members to spend hours coming up with stupid slogans and campaigns when we expect leadership to be working with management to iron out a contract that is palatable on both ends. My solidarity is shot!"

Posted by: Fed up with the APFA | April 14, 2011 at 01:32 PM

"This is embarrassing! The APFA is continuing to show its ignorance and inflexibility in negotiating a contract by further spewing incomprehensible rhetoric and debasing the very airline they depend upon."

Posted by: youfly | April 14, 2011 at 02:00 PM

"Gee whiz...Judge Judy would be so proud!"

Posted by: Kate | April 14, 2011 at 09:10 PM

Read more: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk/2011/04/latest-apfa-campaign-indicts-american-executives.html#ixzz1JbNPh8Pi

I actually have to agree with you whole heartily on this one. I get the messages via email and I don't even read them. I have said all along that complaining about management and their pay will not get us a contract. If the union wants to picket anywhere on the 20th then it should be at the NMB's headquarters where ever that may be.

 

[Harvey]

The documentation has been produces to verify Obama's claim that he was born in the United States and is thus qualified to be president under the constitution.

It is very possible that the NMB is laying a tad low since Congress has asked for an investigation of the NMB, including wanting to know the basis for the NMB changing the voting rules which were used in the DL AFA and IAM representation elections - which ultimately didn't change the outcome but which could affect other carriers.

I'm not sure that the NMB is trying to protect the damage to AA should a strike occur but I am sure they are well aware of it and if it ever gets to the point of one, said President will likely invoke his authority to protect AMR and the traveling public.

So, the 8 year long stalemate between AA and its labor unions continues while competitors continue to grow in key AA markets and AA's financial results trail the industry.

It hasn't been proved do some research and you will see fool...