NWA F/A's Welcome AFA

Your posting doesn't really make sense. Basically, the AFA or any other union had a 2-week window in which to negotiate a consentual agreement. The tone of your postings reflect a bias and/or judgement against the AFA. With an 80% rejection against the contract that PFAA had negotiated, NWA flight attendants were clearly discontented with their in-house union. Basically, AFA had less than a 2-week window in which to negotiate a consentual agreement that would give NWA managaement the required $195 million in concessions, yet also address the concerns and issues in the original TA that led to 80% of the voting membership rejecting it.

I happen to be an AFA member, so I do take exception to your comments since my sense is that you are NOT an AFA member, and therefore, do not have the experience in which to pass judgement... <_<
 
Yet "This quickly" they come on board, put new people in place and now suddenly theres a TA.

Are you informed about NWA's bankruptcy proceedings? The bankruptcy judge allowed for NWA management to impose its own terms and abrogate the NWA flight attendants' contract effective July 17, 2006. Based on that fact, your comments do not make sense.

Let me spell it out for you since, based on your own comments, you do not seem to understand the situation. Had the AFA MEC Negotiating Team (or any OTHER union, for that matter) not reached a tentative by July 17, 2006 NWA management, through permission of the judge overseeing NWA's Chapter 11 proceedings, would have ABROGATED the existing collective bargaining agreement and NWA management would have imposed their OWN contract terms on NWA flight atendants. Since, PFAA's TA was flatly rejected, NWA flight attendants elected a new union to represent them. That union happened to be AFA. In less than 2 weeks, a new union was elected, the old negotiating team was ousted, a new negotiating team was brought fourth, and a NEW tentative agreement was reached, shortly after the court-imposed deadline that allowed NWA managment to gut the existing CBA and IMPOSE their OWN terms. Understood? :blink:
 
Your posting doesn't really make sense. Basically, the AFA or any other union had a 2-week window in which to negotiate a consentual agreement. The tone of your postings reflect a bias and/or judgement against the AFA. With an 80% rejection against the contract that PFAA had negotiated, NWA flight attendants were clearly discontented with their in-house union. Basically, AFA had less than a 2-week window in which to negotiate a consentual agreement that would give NWA managaement the required $195 million in concessions, yet also address the concerns and issues in the original TA that led to 80% of the voting membership rejecting it.

I happen to be an AFA member, so I do take exception to your comments since my sense is that you are NOT an AFA member, and therefore, do not have the experience in which to pass judgement... <_<

You are free to take exception as you see fit, as will I.

No, I am not an AFA member but not being one I can comment on this turn of events just as freely as you can.

Its ridiculous to think the 80% no vote was strictly a vote of no confidence in PFAA, it is equally ridiculous to believe NWA who for the most part was unwilling to deal in good faith with PFAA would suddenly become willing to negotiate simply because a new bargaining agent came on board.

As I said before, I doubt anything substantial has changed from the last TA, as before we shall see.


BTW if it makes you feel any better, its nothing to really do with AFA. You can pick your union of choice, my critique would remain the same under the circumstances.
 
Are you informed about NWA's bankruptcy proceedings? The bankruptcy judge allowed for NWA management to impose its own terms and abrogate the NWA flight attendants' contract effective July 17, 2006. Based on that fact, your comments do not make sense.

Let me spell it out for you since, based on your own comments, you do not seem to understand the situation. Had the AFA MEC Negotiating Team (or any OTHER union, for that matter) not reached a tentative by July 17, 2006 NWA management, through permission of the judge overseeing NWA's Chapter 11 proceedings, would have ABROGATED the existing collective bargaining agreement and NWA management would have imposed their OWN contract terms on NWA flight atendants. Since, PFAA's TA was flatly rejected, NWA flight attendants elected a new union to represent them. That union happened to be AFA. In less than 2 weeks, a new union was elected, the old negotiating team was ousted, a new negotiating team was brought fourth, and a NEW tentative agreement was reached, shortly after the court-imposed deadline that allowed NWA managment to gut the existing CBA and IMPOSE their OWN terms. Understood? :blink:

Your response is sadly typical of most unions these days. What you and many others of similar mindset fail to realize is IF the FAs contract is abrogated you are free to strike. The NWA FAs had a 80% "NO" vote. YOU choose to believe that was 80% against PFAA, I choose to believe a larger portion was directed against the TA itself. You get what you negotiate, if you buckle under threats you get what your belief in that threat earns you. The judge overseeing NWA bankruptcy IN NO WAY enjoined the FAs from striking the carrier if the contract was indeed abrogated, additionally that ability has yet to be tested in a court of law.

Need I remind you that NWA management has already blinked once??? During the last TA vote didn't they come out and say if the TA was voted down there would be "NO MORE" negotiations??? Yet here they are again.

It amazes me how many people are so unwilling to fight.
 
It's always easy to criticize when it's NOT YOUR JOB that's going to be lost. (fyi = I think AFA stinks, but I understand the reasoning) How many pilot groups stood up and said NO? hmmmmmm....NONE
 
Your response is sadly typical of most unions these days.

It amazes me how many people are so unwilling to fight.

I am not sure which union YOU belong to, but feel free to strike when your contract is re-opened. Third seat hero? Oh never mind, you're probably a flight engineer who is side-lined.

As a union member in these times, I personally would prefer to cut my losses and settle for a TA that MINIMIZES the concessions required, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water. But feel free to strike (if you're still employed). Show us how it's done. Perhaps you can pick NWA AMFA's brains on how to implement a successful strike. Walk into an unemployment office or a job re-training office and request an informational interview with a striking NWA AMFA mechanic. I am sure you'll get lots of helpful hints. Then report back me. I am curious to know what the formula for a successful strike is...
 
It's always easy to criticize when it's NOT YOUR JOB that's going to be lost. (fyi = I think AFA stinks, but I understand the reasoning) How many pilot groups stood up and said NO? hmmmmmm....NONE

I've been critical of labors action/inaction as a whole for the most part, these last few years.

As for pilots, other than critiquing them as I have most other unions, I really don't care about what the pilots did or didn't do, I'm not a pilot.
 
I am not sure which union YOU belong to, but feel free to strike when your contract is re-opened. Third seat hero? Oh never mind, you're probably a flight engineer who is side-lined.

As a union member in these times, I personally would prefer to cut my losses and settle for a TA that MINIMIZES the concessions required, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water. But feel free to strike (if you're still employed). Show us how it's done. Perhaps you can pick NWA AMFA's brains on how to implement a successful strike. Walk into an unemployment office or a job re-training office and request an informational interview with a striking NWA AMFA mechanic. I am sure you'll get lots of helpful hints. Then report back me. I am curious to know what the formula for a successful strike is...

Currently, I don't belong to any union. As for striking, thats exactly what I did, WITH MY FEET! I left UAL after 18+ years shortly after they entered bankruptcy. I saw then the fragmenting of unionism, at that time I was represented by the IAM, if you can call it representation. I know I had skills and talents worth more than the IAM/membership was willing to stand up to defend so I left.I've been quite successful from day one. More money, No weekends unless I choose, All my holidays with friends and family, a secure pension as well as a 401k.

My one regret, and its a big one at least to me.

I had to leave Aviation to do it. I never minded making "alittle" less to have a career in a field I truely enjoyed, however wage/benefit stagnation is something I can not and will not be a willing part of.

I can and will continue to blame labor groups that blather on about whats wrong in this industry but other than concessions do little else about it.

EXAMPLE: The NWA FAs made an attempt to couple NWA executive wage increases to their own. On this I salute them. Now a question, Is that same demand intact in the latest TA???
 
Let me tell you something Third Seat Hero. I'm a REALIST. Perhaps Fly said it best: It is SO easy to sit behind a keyboard and post comments when it is not your own job at stake. Since your avatar is named "Third Seat Hero" I am going to presume that you are a side-lined engineer that was at one time represented by ALPA. I am a Purser, and as one, I get an ear full from UAL pilots. So let's compare contracts. Pilots gave up their work rules in their last concessionary agreement. The reason why UAL F/A's and UAL pilots do not often stick together in trip pairings (at United, referred to as trip ID's) is that UAL ALPA work rules are vastly inferior to UAL F/A's' work rules. Flight attendants get 5 paid holidays per year, UAL pilots: zero. Furthermore, pilots gave up trip guarantee, legal crew rest minimums, as well as a host of other work-rules that supercede FAA regs.

The REALITY is, is that United was recruiting for 2000 new flight attendants and received 18,000 applications for the 2000 new positions. At the end of the day, their exists a hefty labor supply that is willing to do MY job for a vastly inferior salary. At this time, my career is still workable. When it stops working FOR me, I will re-assess and most likely, move on. However, at this time, I am STILL able to maximize my earnings potential inspite of two rounds of pay cuts. I fly more days per month, I fly Purser, I fly international more frequently, I fly additional holidays more frequently, I sell duty-free when the opportunity arises, and I can opt to fly more hours to make up for my concessions (something that does not exist in the real world of corporate America).

All of these options are personally preferable to risking putting my job on the line under the threat of a strike and realizing that there are thousands of people in this country who are WILLING to do my job for much less in pay, work-rules, and benefits.

In summary, Third Seat, I have given considerable time to assessing my options and compared to what many of my peers experience in the real world, this job, at the moment, is still working FOR me. It is FAR preferable than receiving unemployment benefits, having no medical insurance, having no 401K match, etc. But you are correct; this is a public forum after all and you are free to post your thoughts while sitting behind a computer screen.

For me, having assessed the realities of the MARKETPLACE, coupled by the fact that we are competing in an emerging global economy, I have carefully weighed my options and still CHOOSE to work as an AFA-represented flight attendant in the near term.

Your comments sound really great in theory, but I have considered and accepted the realities of the marketplace. Until I have achieved skills that enhance my marketability in the workplace and have enhanced my value to an employer, I stand by my decision to accept the concessions that my bargaining representative negotiated during my employer's three year stint in bankruptcy, coupled by skyrocking fuel prices, and a very abundant labor force.

I challenge you to go for it if you think striking your employer will achieve the results you desire...
 
Need I remind you that NWA management has already blinked once??? During the last TA vote didn't they come out and say if the TA was voted down there would be "NO MORE" negotiations??? Yet here they are again.

I wouldn't necessarily classify being ordered by the judge to negotiate as the company "blinking". They had no choice but to really do as the judge ordered.
 
Let me tell you something Third Seat Hero. I'm a REALIST. Perhaps Fly said it best: It is SO easy to sit behind a keyboard and post comments when it is not your own job at stake. Since your avatar is named "Third Seat Hero" I am going to presume that you are a side-lined engineer that was at one time represented by ALPA. I am a Purser, and as one, I get an ear full from UAL pilots. So let's compare contracts. Pilots gave up their work rules in their last concessionary agreement. The reason why UAL F/A's and UAL pilots do not often stick together in trip pairings (at United, referred to as trip ID's) is that UAL ALPA work rules are vastly inferior to UAL F/A's' work rules. Flight attendants get 5 paid holidays per year, UAL pilots: zero. Furthermore, pilots gave up trip guarantee, legal crew rest minimums, as well as a host of other work-rules that supercede FAA regs.

The REALITY is, is that United was recruiting for 2000 new flight attendants and received 18,000 applications for the 2000 new positions. At the end of the day, their exists a hefty labor supply that is willing to do MY job for a vastly inferior salary. At this time, my career is still workable. When it stops working FOR me, I will re-assess and most likely, move on. However, at this time, I am STILL able to maximize my earnings potential inspite of two rounds of pay cuts. I fly more days per month, I fly Purser, I fly international more frequently, I fly additional holidays more frequently, I sell duty-free when the opportunity arises, and I can opt to fly more hours to make up for my concessions (something that does not exist in the real world of corporate America).

All of these options are personally preferable to risking putting my job on the line under the threat of a strike and realizing that there are thousands of people in this country who are WILLING to do my job for much less in pay, work-rules, and benefits.

In summary, Third Seat, I have given considerable time to assessing my options and compared to what many of my peers experience in the real world, this job, at the moment, is still working FOR me. It is FAR preferable than receiving unemployment benefits, having no medical insurance, having no 401K match, etc. But you are correct; this is a public forum after all and you are free to post your thoughts while sitting behind a computer screen.

For me, having assessed the realities of the MARKETPLACE, coupled by the fact that we are competing in an emerging global economy, I have carefully weighed my options and still CHOOSE to work as an AFA-represented flight attendant in the near term.

Your comments sound really great in theory, but I have considered and accepted the realities of the marketplace. Until I have achieved skills that enhance my marketability in the workplace and have enhanced my value to an employer, I stand by my decision to accept the concessions that my bargaining representative negotiated during my employer's three year stint in bankruptcy, coupled by skyrocking fuel prices, and a very abundant labor force.

I challenge you to go for it if you think striking your employer will achieve the results you desire...

Very honest an intelligent post.
 
:) TWA Skyliner and Finman:

Thank you both for your affirming comments. They're much appreciated. I very much consider myself a flight attendant that is pro-company, pro-union, and pro-customer. It troubles me when I read comments in public forums that deminish the AFA. I truly believe, that under very difficult circumstances, United's AFA MEC Negotiating Committee did a stellar job of MINIMIZING the pain that was required to concede some hard-fought pay, work-rules and benefits. I believe in giving credit where credit is due. I will challenge anyone who suggests that the AFA is merely out to collect union dues. I have seen, first hand, my dues monies at work and having worked for a non-union carrier at one point in my airline career, I can tell you, the difference is night and day between being represented by a CBA and not being represented. On the same token, there have been union strategies that I have often disagreed with. When AFA's communications chairperson went on public television and denounced Glenn Tilton and called for his resignation, I thought it was very irresponsible. Contrary to what many of my colleagues (and union) may think, I personally believe the man pulled off an amazing feat to get UAL through a 3-year stay in bankruptcy with all of its assets intact. Without his expertise and experience, I believe that UAL would not have made it through the bankruptcy process. I truly hope that the UAL business plan is successful in the long term. I will also challenge comments that suggest airline unions have buckled and rolled over. At the end of the day, I believe that in this current market, it is prudent to cut one's losses rather than risk potentially throwing out the entire baby with the bath water...
 
Congratulations to the NWA FAs on taking a step towards uniting their profession.

The AFA is not a magic pill, but its a step in the right direction.

In order for labor to regain what we lost we must abandon the practices that made us so weak in the first place.

The Flight Attendants are a typical example. As the industry consolidated the labor movement did not, a divided profession was able to do ok under a regulated enviornment but completely unfit to survive in an unregulated one where assetts could flow freely from one corporation to the next.

Flight attendants were "represented" by many different unions. Some where specifically Flight attendant unions such as the AFA, APFA, PFAA. Others were catch all unions like the TWU, IAM and IBT. But all this did was leave the Flight Attendants spread out all over the place without enough of a concentration or resources to truly push for issues important to FAs. I remember seeing a paper put out by the TWU in the 70s that was saying that the AA Flight Attendants should stay with the TWU because the TWU had more clout and was going to get it where in order to be a Flight Attendants they have to be FAA Certified like the pilots. The AA Flight Attendants had to form a new union because the AFA would not take them-due to agreements within the AFL-CIO. 30 years later and the TWU, AFL-CIO and all have still not delivered.

The CWA has a reputation for militancy, and your affiliation with them should be a good thing. You have taken the first step, now you must take the next step. You must convinvce your leadership that they must make a claim for the right to represent ALL Flight Attendants. They should appeal to the AFL-CIO for support in organizing the whole industry into the AFA,(which would probably be rejected) this includes those currently represented by AFL-CIO affiliated unions such as the TWU, IAM and IBT. They should also go after the independant unions such as the APFA. Once organized into one union you could then establish standard rates so that your wages are no longer a means to a competitive edge by greedy corporations.

Once again good luck and thankfully you guys did not end up getting stuck in the TWU. Hopefully when you choose your new leaders you can vote accordingly and punish those who were willing to sell you guys down the river for that big TWU International paycheck.
 
The REALITY is, is that United was recruiting for 2000 new flight attendants and received 18,000 applications for the 2000 new positions.


How do you know how many applications they recieved? Do you go by what the company says? If they didnt receieve any do you think they would admit it?



The fact is that you are simply willing to accept whatever your master throws at you.