pay raise

[eolesen]

Plus benefits in Europe, eh? Try nationalized healthcare, for which they are taxed at a rate which would make Warren Buffet blush.

My peers in Europe claim to be taxed between 40 and 45%. and that doesn't include the 17% VAT on purchases.

 

[Birdman]

Like I said before....show me where AO pays mechanics $40 an hour, let alone $33 an hour besides AA??????

WN pays the same on the line as they do on their 3 heavy AO lines. US and UA make about the same as we do but all the rest make more and contrary to belief, most of them do some heavy maintenance. Why is it that since AA does more AO work than all the other carriers that many think only AA's AO is penalizing their line. I agree there should be line and geo pay but your really only worth what you can get.

 

[strikeforce]

Plus benefits in Europe, eh? Try nationalized healthcare, for which they are taxed at a rate which would make Warren Buffet blush.

My peers in Europe claim to be taxed between 40 and 45%. and that doesn't include the 17% VAT on purchases.

Ok, and I'm paying approx. $400 per month for AA healthcare, but only earning $33 an hour. 30% less than my counterpart in Europe working the Line, and he/she isn't forced to pay $700 per year for union dues.

 

[strikeforce]

WN pays the same on the line as they do on their 3 heavy AO lines. US and UA make about the same as we do but all the rest make more and contrary to belief, most of them do some heavy maintenance. Why is it that since AA does more AO work than all the other carriers that many think only AA's AO is penalizing their line. I agree there should be line and geo pay but your really only worth what you can get.

I'm not blaming the guys in AO....I'm blaming the labor organizations for not chasing the maximum pay rates out there. Is it any coincidence that some of your profitable airlines like WN, UPS and Fed Ex farm out most of their AO and pay Line mechanics 30 or 40 percent more than legacy airlines. Even NON-UNION Delta Line mechanics make as much, if not more than AA mechanics, and they also farm out AO. Delta mechanics get those rates strictly by default, and they don't have to wait 8 years to get it, and they're happy.

By keeping AO, AA has to balance pay rates for ALL while staying competitive, and for the TWU it means accepting lower pay rates for Line, AO and accepting more non-licensed helpers. In other words, it's better to have lower paid union workers paying some union dues than farming out AO and losing millions in union dues.
Instead the TWU should be chasing the $50 pay rate and let the cards fall wherever they fall, and if that means losing some AO work, at least they can protect the high wage sector of aircraft maintenance. That's what I assume AMFA and Teamsters did at those airlines.

In hindsight, AMFA and the Teamsters did exactly what you said, "they captured their maximum value by accepting high wages from WN and UPS in exchange to farm out AO. Union dues were not part of the equation.

Look, for AA it won't matter if they do AO in house or farm out because at some point down the road those costs will balance out by hiring lower paid mechanics or helpers, as more topped out mechanics retire. But, as a member of a labor organization that's more interested in protecting union dues over high wages, it's been a slow death to the unemployment line or soup kitchen.

 

[Buck]

If you agree Line pay is low, why would you need clarification???? SWA, UPS, and Fed Ex make over 40% more than our line mechanics. That's huge! Brother.

don't you think someone is getting shortchanged by sticking with the TWU????? Why doesn't AMFA at SWA, and the Teamsters at UPS fight hard to bring back AO.....to the point of shutting down those airlines????? Only one reason, it's because Line Maintenance is like the quarterback or clean up hitter for sports teams......it's the most valuable player to the team/airline, and those labor organizations know it, and they know those airlines will pay $50, and they know the airlines won't pay $50 for AO. It's just my opinion, mind you.

Let's stop beating around the bush......Don't you think our union should capitalize on the value of Line Maintenance to AA??? I'm not taking anything away from the value of AO, but Line is much more critical to AA's operation. Flights are at risk of delays or cancellations. AA hates delays, so much that phones ring off the hook. I see it everyday. So, why not chase that $50 per hour for Line???? It's beneficial to all of us, and I don't only think AA will pay that much, but AA knows that $50 rate is out there and they would lose in binding arbitration. They know it.

Look, non-union AA mechanics in Europe are making $45 an hour, plus benefits. Why hasn't the union fought for that much for our Line guys???? It should be a no brainer, and easy argument, right??? Wrong! WHY????? Why do think they don't fight....it's all about union dues. And, if it's all about union dues then the value of the profession get's watered down to point where you price yourself out of a job. Like I said before....show me where AO pays mechanics $40 an hour, let alone $33 an hour besides AA??????

Bottom line....there shouldn't be this argument between Line and OH because if WE had adequate representation, the labor organizations would know the market value of Line vs. OH and it would concentrate all it's efforts on pursuing the highest wages and benefits airlines are willing to pay for that particular service, even if it means satisfying one group and angering another. It's called market value, Buck! Too bad unions call market value....union dues!

If you agree Line pay is low, why would you need clarification????

I wanted clarification because there is no disparity between the compensation of OH and the Line. Again there lies the problem. The TWU, an Industrial Union, sees everyone as the the same. Everyone in the craft and class not just OH and the line, but everyone. There is no "free market".

Don't you think our union should capitalize on the value of Line Maintenance to AA???

The TWU will never divide any part of the class and craft, let alone any part of the the industrial complex. The only item that the TWU is going to capitalize on is your dues, at your expense. To answer, yes it would be wise to capitalize on this important function, however it will have to be the company not the union.

 

[FWAAA]

Could you clarify this statement? I agree that line pay is low, but there is not that much of a disparity between those at the bases and thats part of the problem.

I thought that Strikeforce did a good job, but I'll try to say it a different way. I agree that there isn't enough difference between pay for the line mechanics and those at the bases. When I excluded those at the bases from my statement about low pay, I was saying that the pay in Tulsa and Fort Worth isn't low. Far from it - they are very decent MRO wages for people who perform heavy checks.

My point was that AA's line mechanics are very poorly paid relative to the UPS/FedEX/WN wages but that the AA base mechanics are not all that poorly paid relative to most MRO wages here in the States (even ignoring the very low pay of many offshore MRO employees). Employees in Tulsa and those in Fort Worth who don't work the line would of course like higher pay, but the primary service they provide (scheduled heavy airframe and engine overhaul) is not a service where the employees are as highly paid as line maintenance.

It appears that WN does perform some heavy airframe overhaul but they do it with very few employees and they outsource most heavy checks, some to very low-wage El Salvador. UPS doesn't do any heavy checks in house (dunno about FedEx). It's fantasy to think that AA will every pay its base employees the high wages that UPS/FedEx/WN pays their mechanics (who are all primarily line maintenance).

 

[strikeforce]

It appears to me that AA has decided to look for alternative sources to lower the pay rate for Fleet Service by using Eagle's lower paid rampers to do the work. The TWU has priced themselves out of thousands of good jobs. But, you don't see the TWU objecting to this because the rampers at Eagle are also represented by the TWU. The AO side of maintenance may end up pricing themselves out of good jobs if they continue with representation by the TWU. AO is giving AA an excuse to look elswhere just like Fleet. Don't think it won't happen, AA is not that stupid.

 

[Buck]

It appears to me that AA has decided to look for alternative sources to lower the pay rate for Fleet Service by using Eagle's lower paid rampers to do the work. The TWU has priced themselves out of thousands of good jobs. But, you don't see the TWU objecting to this because the rampers at Eagle are also represented by the TWU. The AO side of maintenance may end up pricing themselves out of good jobs if they continue with representation by the TWU. AO is giving AA an excuse to look elswhere just like Fleet. Don't think it won't happen, AA is not that stupid.

This is why the craft and class of the A&P mechanic needs to seek a new form of representation. When every class and craft are paid wages based on the pure strength in numbers form of unionism, the company has no choice to attack the unit as a whole. Then you start to see the benefits become the target as well as wages. I believe that the bases would agree to a COLA type compensation. What they will not agree to is a division of the benefit package, based on age, i.e. retirement and health care. If a T/A was brought back that boosted the bases to where they would have been prior to the 2003 agreement and benefits were equatable, then it would pass. The membership lives in fear. Their Representative, justs keeps them on the edge so to speak. It draws the dues in while keeping the company viable, unless the company is really in dire straits.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

When do we stop pointing fingers at others? It's not A/Os fault we don't have a contract. The managers at AA don't want to pay ANYONE a fair wage. The only way to beat them is to stick together and fight. A/O is not the enemy of line. If you were happy with the last TA and it didn't pass I am sorry. I just didn't think it was a fair offer and voted no. I will continue to vote no on any others that I don't think are fair. And yes one of the reasons was the lump sum instead of a raise on my base pay. If you accept that then you have to negotiate the same raise over and over and I am not going to go for that. If they claim they are giving me a percentage raise, then put it in my base pay. I know there are those who think that AO AMTs are somehow inferior to line AMTs but that is hogwash. And comparing TULE to some MRO in South America is like comparing apples and oranges. Stop harping on AO. The only way to make things better is to kick the TWU out on their collective ear. They have sold us out time and time again and are in the process of doing it again.

 

[iluvaa]

I thought that Strikeforce did a good job, but I'll try to say it a different way. I agree that there isn't enough difference between pay for the line mechanics and those at the bases. When I excluded those at the bases from my statement about low pay, I was saying that the pay in Tulsa and Fort Worth isn't low. Far from it - they are very decent MRO wages for people who perform heavy checks.

My point was that AA's line mechanics are very poorly paid relative to the UPS/FedEX/WN wages but that the AA base mechanics are not all that poorly paid relative to most MRO wages here in the States (even ignoring the very low pay of many offshore MRO employees). Employees in Tulsa and those in Fort Worth who don't work the line would of course like higher pay, but the primary service they provide (scheduled heavy airframe and engine overhaul) is not a service where the employees are as highly paid as line maintenance.

It appears that WN does perform some heavy airframe overhaul but they do it with very few employees and they outsource most heavy checks, some to very low-wage El Salvador. UPS doesn't do any heavy checks in house (dunno about FedEx). It's fantasy to think that AA will every pay its base employees the high wages that UPS/FedEx/WN pays their mechanics (who are all primarily line maintenance).

well then why are united and delta who farm out OH not paid so much more, everyone keeps bringing up fed-ex and ups THEY ARE NOT AIRLINES NEWS FLASH and then swa which is and the only one you should really be comparing

 

[AV1]

well then why are united and delta who farm out OH not paid so much more, everyone keeps bringing up fed-ex and ups THEY ARE NOT AIRLINES NEWS FLASH and then swa which is and the only one you should really be comparing

I don't have a problem with Line Maintenance receiving more than OH and I work overhaul. How does anyone live in New York, Chicago, etc. on the wages we currently make is incredible. I also don't care for the shifts that they have to work. I would give up pay for that time to spend with family, etc. If you want family time, bid the overhaul. If financial is what your looking for, bid the line. What truly gets me, is the overhaul employees that demand $45 an hour and then besides griping about everything else, absolutely have no idea what work is. We have plenty of good workers, but we also have the others. The union is trying to please everyone, sometimes it cannot happen. A raise should be in our future but the line should be compensated for what they do.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

I don't have a problem with Line Maintenance receiving more than OH and I work overhaul. How does anyone live in New York, Chicago, etc. on the wages we currently make is incredible. I also don't care for the shifts that they have to work. I would give up pay for that time to spend with family, etc. If you want family time, bid the overhaul. If financial is what your looking for, bid the line. What truly gets me, is the overhaul employees that demand $45 an hour and then besides griping about everything else, absolutely have no idea what work is. We have plenty of good workers, but we also have the others. The union is trying to please everyone, sometimes it cannot happen. A raise should be in our future but the line should be compensated for what they do.

I do not have a problem with line guys in high cost areas getting more $. I do have a problem with taking a lump sum instead of a raise in base pay. Apparently some line guys thought AO didn't like them getting $2.55 per hour worked while we got a one time lump sum payment for the length of the entire contract. I had no problem with the $2.55 part (except that the guys across the runway from us were going to get it). I just had a problem with a one time payment for 8 plus years of concessions. I won't even bring up the fact that if that just about everything else in the TA was laughable. As far as AO guys demanding more money, I think we should at least get a bump from what we were making 8 years ago. Maybe these "slackers" you talk about are tired of having to bid on their own work and then the company uses their figures to negotiate a better deal with a third party. Maybe they don't like having to go see the "sick lady" when they use their sick time and take a half day pay cut. Maybe they're tired of seeing managers pulling in fortunes in bonuses while they have to take out student loans for their kids to go to college. If you are content to make what you are making for the job that you do then more power to you. I happen to think that with the responcibility that goes with our job there should be more in compensation.

 

[strikeforce]

well then why are united and delta who farm out OH not paid so much more, everyone keeps bringing up fed-ex and ups THEY ARE NOT AIRLINES NEWS FLASH and then swa which is and the only one you should really be comparing

Wrong! Show me where it says that passenger airline mechanics can't compare themselves to cargo airline mechanics???? We're all licensed aircraft mechanics, right? Therefore, I compare myself to other AMT's, period!

Pilots compare themselves to other pilots, whether cargo or passenger.....the pilot's pay rate is based on fleet type, i.e. 747, 777 etc.

This is the reason AMT's are a disfunctional group....we believe the BS management and unions feed US. Stop It!!!

 

[mike7863]

Wrong! Show me where it says that passenger airline mechanics can't compare themselves to cargo airline mechanics???? We're all licensed aircraft mechanics, right? Therefore, I compare myself to other AMT's, period!

Pilots compare themselves to other pilots, whether cargo or passenger.....the pilot's pay rate is based on fleet type, i.e. 747, 777 etc.

This is the reason AMT's are a disfunctional group....we believe the BS management and unions feed US. Stop It!!!

yes your right you are all licensed mechanics and so are most of the overhaul a&p mechs. so what is the difference? i have worked 13 years as a line amt and 3 as a overhaul amt. so i know what the line mechs do and it is no more special than what the o/h guys do. yes you work weekends but you also get to day trade off if you need a certain weekend also. hell when i worked flight line i worked 3 days a week, two 16 and a 8 hour shift. we cant do that at the bases. yes you work holidays but you get paid for it. hell when i worked the line i always looked forward to working the holidays. if anybody deserves to get paid more than o/h its the line guys in high cost cities and everybody i talked to at the base has no problem give them more money.

 

[strikeforce]

yes your right you are all licensed mechanics and so are most of the overhaul a&p mechs. so what is the difference? i have worked 13 years as a line amt and 3 as a overhaul amt. so i know what the line mechs do and it is no more special than what the o/h guys do. yes you work weekends but you also get to day trade off if you need a certain weekend also. hell when i worked flight line i worked 3 days a week, two 16 and a 8 hour shift. we cant do that at the bases. yes you work holidays but you get paid for it. hell when i worked the line i always looked forward to working the holidays. if anybody deserves to get paid more than o/h its the line guys in high cost cities and everybody i talked to at the base has no problem give them more money.

First, cargo vs. passenger has nothing to do with OH vs. Line, it's two seperate issues. Let me explain my arguments.

Cargo vs. Passenger.....there is no difference in the type of service Line mechanics provide for each. Let's use ORD for example. UPS, Fed Ex, UAL & AA all have line ops, and depending on each airline's maint. program all of the Line mechanics functions are typically the same. In other words, the line mechanic works "live trips" or performs some type of routine check and clears non-routine items. The aircraft mechanic works on the same type of aircraft for both cargo and passenger, and passenger airlines are more critical because you guessed it......responsible for peoples lives. In my opinion, passenger AMT's should make more than cargo.


Line vs. OH......huge difference in "service". Base provides in depth maintenance typically lasting days or weeks. Although management would prefer to have these aircraft in service sooner rather than later, these aircraft do not present immediate problems to AA's daily operation. On the other hand, having an OTS aircraft at the gate with 200 screaming passengers looking for alternative travel presents AA with customer service problems, "right now". The line mechanic provides a critical "service". I'm not saying the OH mechanic can't do this type of work because they can, but it's the type of customer service line mechanics provide the customer, and in this case is American Airlines.