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I thought that Strikeforce did a good job, but I'll try to say it a different way. I agree that there isn't enough difference between pay for the line mechanics and those at the bases. When I excluded those at the bases from my statement about low pay, I was saying that the pay in Tulsa and Fort Worth isn't low. Far from it - they are very decent MRO wages for people who perform heavy checks.

My point was that AA's line mechanics are very poorly paid relative to the UPS/FedEX/WN wages but that the AA base mechanics are not all that poorly paid relative to most MRO wages here in the States (even ignoring the very low pay of many offshore MRO employees). Employees in Tulsa and those in Fort Worth who don't work the line would of course like higher pay, but the primary service they provide (scheduled heavy airframe and engine overhaul) is not a service where the employees are as highly paid as line maintenance.

It appears that WN does perform some heavy airframe overhaul but they do it with very few employees and they outsource most heavy checks, some to very low-wage El Salvador. UPS doesn't do any heavy checks in house (dunno about FedEx). It's fantasy to think that AA will every pay its base employees the high wages that UPS/FedEx/WN pays their mechanics (who are all primarily line maintenance).

Two points.
1) We arent even asking for WN wages, let alone Fed Ex or UPS. Not for the bases, not for the line. Without any evidence to prove that doing OH in house creates a competative disadvantage we are agreeing to give AA a discount on Line Maint and in house OH as long as they keep most of it in house. The company isn't happy with the discount we offered, they are being pigs, they are insisting that we agree to parity or less than parity with carriers that went through BK, are living under terms set in BK and are currently in negotiations for the first time since BK. There is benefit for the line in agreeing to a modest discount compared to WN, and a huge discount compared to UPS such as we get better planes to work on and dont have to worry that since the Feds cant nail that guy in El Salvador for his sloppy work that they will focus on us when the inevitable happens. For the Junior guys keeping the work in house also means they wont have 6000 base mechanics trying to find a place on the line.


2) Our base guys do not work for an MRO, they work for American Airlines. They are Airline workers and they expect to be paid as such. An MRO may pay their mechanics $25/hr but they sell that labor to carriers for much more than that, plus rape them on parts, materials and hours charged. By doing work in house the carrier cuts out the middleman who would earn a profit doing work for the airline. MROs (and LCC, non-scheds etc) were typically training grounds for the mechanics that would end up at airlines, they got away with Low pay because mechanics looked at working for them like doctors look at internships. They put in their time at MROs and LCCs to get the experience required to get to the majors and left. People didnt go to A&P schools so they could work for TIMCOs or AARs, they went there to work for the Pan Ams, Uniteds, and American Airlines. Some landed at the UPS's and Fed-Ex's and got a little more than their Airline counterparts but it wasnt because those carriers were profitable it was because they had to pay more because they did not offer Flight Benefits which, when Airfares were high, were a valuable benefit.

I was recently told the Industry needs 15000 mechanics a year just to maintain current headcount, the FAA certifies a third of that number. The MROs are having trouble getting people and the majors are lowering their experience requirements. At AA its gone from 5 years heavy turbine to zero years. "Just ship it all overseas", well most of the growth in aviation will be overseas, they need to fix their own stuff. "Hire non-license holders"? Yep, they can but the Insurance companies are going to want a lot more to insure your business.

Should the line be paid more than OH? Well I think that certain things need to be considered such as location, shifts and conditions. Location, the fact is that more densiy populated areas provide more opportunity to generate money, so you must have operations in high density locations which tend to be more costly places to live. In the airline industry people who live in low cost areas benifit from the operations that take place in high cost areas so they should not object to a reasonable difference in compensation to allow those who work in the places that generate most of the revenues that are used to pay everyone not the same standard of living but at least a decent standard of living. Its safe to say that there would be no need for Tulsa or DFW (at least as much as there is ) without the revenue generated out of NY, LA, MIA and ORD.There should be a considerable difference in pay between a guy who works days and a guy who works nights. The current differentials across the industry are pitiful and unrealistic. 10% should be the minimum. " Conditions, such as working Holidays, and out in the elements should also be a consideration.

My understanding is that the base guys in Tulsa are agreeable to paying guys more who live in high cost areas but are not agreeable to the guy who may be his next door neighbor with the exact same license working for the same company with the same days off working the same shift getting a $2 an hour bigger increase because he works on the other side of the airport.
 
Two points.
1) We arent even asking for WN wages, let alone Fed Ex or UPS. Not for the bases, not for the line. Without any evidence to prove that doing OH in house creates a competative disadvantage we are agreeing to give AA a discount on Line Maint and in house OH as long as they keep most of it in house. The company isn't happy with the discount we offered, they are being pigs, they are insisting that we agree to parity or less than parity with carriers that went through BK, are living under terms set in BK and are currently in negotiations for the first time since BK. There is benefit for the line in agreeing to a modest discount compared to WN, and a huge discount compared to UPS such as we get better planes to work on and dont have to worry that since the Feds cant nail that guy in El Salvador for his sloppy work that they will focus on us when the inevitable happens. For the Junior guys keeping the work in house also means they wont have 6000 base mechanics trying to find a place on the line.


2) Our base guys do not work for an MRO, they work for American Airlines. They are Airline workers and they expect to be paid as such. An MRO may pay their mechanics $25/hr but they sell that labor to carriers for much more than that, plus rape them on parts, materials and hours charged. By doing work in house the carrier cuts out the middleman who would earn a profit doing work for the airline. MROs (and LCC, non-scheds etc) were typically training grounds for the mechanics that would end up at airlines, they got away with Low pay because mechanics looked at working for them like doctors look at internships. They put in their time at MROs and LCCs to get the experience required to get to the majors and left. People didnt go to A&P schools so they could work for TIMCOs or AARs, they went there to work for the Pan Ams, Uniteds, and American Airlines. Some landed at the UPS's and Fed-Ex's and got a little more than their Airline counterparts but it wasnt because those carriers were profitable it was because they had to pay more because they did not offer Flight Benefits which, when Airfares were high, were a valuable benefit.

I was recently told the Industry needs 15000 mechanics a year just to maintain current headcount, the FAA certifies a third of that number. The MROs are having trouble getting people and the majors are lowering their experience requirements. At AA its gone from 5 years heavy turbine to zero years. "Just ship it all overseas", well most of the growth in aviation will be overseas, they need to fix their own stuff. "Hire non-license holders"? Yep, they can but the Insurance companies are going to want a lot more to insure your business.

Should the line be paid more than OH? Well I think that certain things need to be considered such as location, shifts and conditions. Location, the fact is that more densiy populated areas provide more opportunity to generate money, so you must have operations in high density locations which tend to be more costly places to live. In the airline industry people who live in low cost areas benifit from the operations that take place in high cost areas so they should not object to a reasonable difference in compensation to allow those who work in the places that generate most of the revenues that are used to pay everyone not the same standard of living but at least a decent standard of living. Its safe to say that there would be no need for Tulsa or DFW (at least as much as there is ) without the revenue generated out of NY, LA, MIA and ORD.There should be a considerable difference in pay between a guy who works days and a guy who works nights. The current differentials across the industry are pitiful and unrealistic. 10% should be the minimum. " Conditions, such as working Holidays, and out in the elements should also be a consideration.

My understanding is that the base guys in Tulsa are agreeable to paying guys more who live in high cost areas but are not agreeable to the guy who may be his next door neighbor with the exact same license working for the same company with the same days off working the same shift getting a $2 an hour bigger increase because he works on the other side of the airport.
bob most guys i talk to here at afw feel the same way about cost of living raises. high cost cities should get compensated more.
 
My understanding is that the base guys in Tulsa are agreeable to paying guys more who live in high cost areas but are not agreeable to the guy who may be his next door neighbor with the exact same license working for the same company with the same days off working the same shift getting a $2 an hour bigger increase because he works on the other side of the airport.

You guys on the line need to stop thinking that just because some guy on this board wrote something like that ,its actually what Tulsa in general thinks.
Most guys I know do not care if 20 guys across the ramp make more or less.
Their concern is their own stability and future.
This board is definitely not an indication of what Tulsa thinks.
If you line guys can get the deal you deserve all the power to you.
A guy in Tulsa that wants that money (if its there) can always bid the line.
Most will stay and collect the endless overtime.
 
yes your right you are all licensed mechanics and so are most of the overhaul a&p mechs. so what is the difference? i have worked 13 years as a line amt and 3 as a overhaul amt. so i know what the line mechs do and it is no more special than what the o/h guys do. yes you work weekends but you also get to day trade off if you need a certain weekend also. hell when i worked flight line i worked 3 days a week, two 16 and a 8 hour shift. we cant do that at the bases. yes you work holidays but you get paid for it. hell when i worked the line i always looked forward to working the holidays. if anybody deserves to get paid more than o/h its the line guys in high cost cities and everybody i talked to at the base has no problem give them more money.
NO !!! We don't get paid for it !If u want to work a holiday for 4 extra hours pay be my guest.
 
First, cargo vs. passenger has nothing to do with OH vs. Line, it's two seperate issues. Let me explain my arguments.

Cargo vs. Passenger.....there is no difference in the type of service Line mechanics provide for each. Let's use ORD for example. UPS, Fed Ex, UAL & AA all have line ops, and depending on each airline's maint. program all of the Line mechanics functions are typically the same. In other words, the line mechanic works "live trips" or performs some type of routine check and clears non-routine items. The aircraft mechanic works on the same type of aircraft for both cargo and passenger, and passenger airlines are more critical because you guessed it......responsible for peoples lives. In my opinion, passenger AMT's should make more than cargo.


Line vs. OH......huge difference in "service". Base provides in depth maintenance typically lasting days or weeks. Although management would prefer to have these aircraft in service sooner rather than later, these aircraft do not present immediate problems to AA's daily operation. On the other hand, having an OTS aircraft at the gate with 200 screaming passengers looking for alternative travel presents AA with customer service problems, "right now". The line mechanic provides a critical "service". I'm not saying the OH mechanic can't do this type of work because they can, but it's the type of customer service line mechanics provide the customer, and in this case is American Airlines.
Ok what percent really works live flights last I checked you all #### about working mids how many live flights are in the middle of the night hmm
 
Ok what percent really works live flights last I checked you all #### about working mids how many live flights are in the middle of the night hmm

It doesn't have to be a percentage or what time of the day it is....all it takes is one or two delays and AA's system ops is all screwed up. It has huge ramifications on AA's schedule. Rebooking passengers, and such creates a host of problems for the company. All I'm trying to say is that the union continuously fails to use this as leverage against the company. Look, somehow AMFA and the Teamsters were able to negotiate $45 to $50 an hour for their line guys. Any clue on how did they do it???? Here, the TWU is having a hard time getting US a dime out of AA. WHY????? What's the hold up here.....do WE even know?????
 
You guys on the line need to stop thinking that just because some guy on this board wrote something like that ,its actually what Tulsa in general thinks.
Most guys I know do not care if 20 guys across the ramp make more or less.
Their concern is their own stability and future.
This board is definitely not an indication of what Tulsa thinks.
If you line guys can get the deal you deserve all the power to you.
A guy in Tulsa that wants that money (if its there) can always bid the line.
Most will stay and collect the endless overtime.

Maybe we need to stop the "line premium" reference and stick with "Geo pay."
 
Maybe we need to stop the "line premium" reference and stick with "Geo pay."
I'm good with that, but let each local station determine their own geo pay. And, don't have heartache if I ask for $10 geo pay over and above the bases. $1.25 geo pay just won't cut it in ORD.
 
I'm good with that, but let each local station determine their own geo pay. And, don't have heartache if I ask for $10 geo pay over and above the bases. $1.25 geo pay just won't cut it in ORD.

Absolutely! Especially after hearing for decades, "HEY IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TRANSFER TO TULE!"
 
I'm good with that, but let each local station determine their own geo pay. And, don't have heartache if I ask for $10 geo pay over and above the bases. $1.25 geo pay just won't cut it in ORD.
I believe that the city or airport authority should be involved to retain the workforce needed. Have the local taxes help determine the GEO Pay.
 

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