Pilot Bid for Nov/Dec

BoeingBoy

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Nov 9, 2003
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** Probably meaningless to anyone other than pilots **

As most everyone is aware from the other thread, there is a new East pilot bid out for Nov/Dec. Unfortunately, some confusion over the Emb-190 seems to have resulted for a poor choice of words. The bid says this:

"There will be a Six (6) month freeze lift to the E-190 equipment only. (Reference Pilots Agreement Page 24-9 Line 20)"

What this references is section 24(E)(2)(g) of the contract which states:

24(E)(2)(g) A pilot will be released from a freeze in the event:

(1) The pilot is awarded a vacancy on new equipment introduced or reintroduced to the airline (excludes F-28-1000, F-28-4000, F-100 (initial series), DC-9-30, B-737 (All), MD-81/82, B727-200, B-757 and B-767-200 aircraft). In such a case the equipment shall be considered to be new for a period of six (6) months.


In short, a pilot who is otherwise subject to the provisions of an equipment freeze will have the freeze lifted to permit an award to the Emb-190 only. This lift freeze provision is available for the first 6 months that the Emb-190 is available for bid - Dec 1, 2006 thru May 1, 2007 bid effective dates.

Please note - anyone who voluntary bids and is awarded an Emb-190 position will be subject to the normal equipment freeze provisions and will be frozen to the Emb-190 for up to 24 months (excepting other contractual freeze lift provisions).

Any pilot's who have any questions on this or other bidding issues please call - my phone numbers are in the Airwaves, the website under Permanent Bid Closing Committee, or you can PM me.

Jim
 
** Probably meaningless to anyone other than pilots **

As most everyone is aware from the other thread, there is a new East pilot bid out for Nov/Dec. Unfortunately, some confusion over the Emb-190 seems to have resulted for a poor choice of words. The bid says this:

"There will be a Six (6) month freeze lift to the E-190 equipment only. (Reference Pilots Agreement Page 24-9 Line 20)"

What this references is section 24(E)(2)(g) of the contract which states:

24(E)(2)(g) A pilot will be released from a freeze in the event:

(1) The pilot is awarded a vacancy on new equipment introduced or reintroduced to the airline (excludes F-28-1000, F-28-4000, F-100 (initial series), DC-9-30, B-737 (All), MD-81/82, B727-200, B-757 and B-767-200 aircraft). In such a case the equipment shall be considered to be new for a period of six (6) months.


In short, a pilot who is otherwise subject to the provisions of an equipment freeze will have the freeze lifted to permit an award to the Emb-190 only. This lift freeze provision is available for the first 6 months that the Emb-190 is available for bid - Dec 1, 2006 thru May 1, 2007 bid effective dates.

Please note - anyone who voluntary bids and is awarded an Emb-190 position will be subject to the normal equipment freeze provisions and will be frozen to the Emb-190 for up to 24 months (excepting other contractual freeze lift provisions).

Any pilot's who have any questions on this or other bidding issues please call - my phone numbers are in the Airwaves, the website under Permanent Bid Closing Committee, or you can PM me.

Jim
Jim,

Are these going to be recall positions, bump and flush or combination of both? It's my understanding, (could be wrong), that we can bypass a recall into the F/O position of the 190 as much as we like. Is this still true?

I'm just wondering how this is going to shake out, I'm not sure how many of the furloughees will take a recall as a F/O into the 190 with the current pay rates? So then what, does USAir start the new-hire process while 1000+ pilots are still on furlough from the east side? Just wondering what your thoughts are?
 
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Are these going to be recall positions, bump and flush or combination of both?
I'm not sure which "these" you're talking about. When the ~15 vacancies are left over after all active pilots are awarded bids, the recalled folks will choose (in seniority order) which they want. Sorta like a mini-bid only for the recallees.

It's my understanding, (could be wrong), that we can bypass a recall into the F/O position of the 190 as much as we like. Is this still true?
As far as I know, subject (like everything else) to the result of combined contract negotiations.

I'm just wondering how this is going to shake out, I'm not sure how many of the furloughees will take a recall as a F/O into the 190 with the current pay rates?
Your guess is undoubtedly as good as mine. I think I've opined before that the Emb-190 captain slots will probably be mostly/all filled by current active pilots and the F/O slots mostly/all filled with recallees.

I'd note (somewhat off topic) that the freeze lift provision allows the previous recallees to bid the 190, which wasn't available when they came back. I assume that some of them flew the 170 at MDA and may want to go to the 190 instead of the bottom reserve F/O positions they now occupy.

So then what, does USAir start the new-hire process while 1000+ pilots are still on furlough from the east side? Just wondering what your thoughts are?

In theory, yes - though I don't expect it to come to that. Maybe further down the road but not yet.

Jim
 
With the way the bypass provision is written, there will undoubtedly be new-hires off the street before all the furloughees are recalled, although it may take a little while for that to happen.

The way I read the bid, there is a net reduction of about 60 positions overall and there are 25 "new" positions in the 190 - 10 CA's and 15 FO's. The way I read that is the 15 FO slots will be from the APL and that leaves the 10 190 CA position to be filled from the currently active pilots on the property. I'm sure there will be 10 current pilots that will take those slots, BUT... Let's pretend there are only 5 that want the position. Am I correct to understand that if that's the case, the 5 most junior FO's will be FORCED into the 190 as a CA??
 
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Not at all. The way the bid works (in the case of recalling furloughees like this bid) is that all active pilots will have a shot at all positions, including the Emb-190 jobs. Once that is complete, there'll be ~15 open jobs left which could be any equipment (as in the 757 F/O jobs left for the last recallees). The furloughees will be offered those ~15 jobs in seniority order till they're all filled.

The only real question is what jobs openings will exist after the active pilots have had their shot. Presumably most/all the Emb-190 F/O jobs, but there's no telling till the bid is awarded.

On the other note, mainline as it now exists (no Emb-190) lost 77 jobs. That was partially offset by the 25 Emb-190 jobs, resulting in a net loss of 52 jobs.

Also, I think I once opined that there'd be somewhere between 50 and 100 recalls by the end of the year. I assumed that the attrition would have to be at least partially offset in addition to staffing for the Emb-190. For October, every base/equip/position has a 90 hour pay cap with some at 95 if I remember the CBS message correctly. The staffing is getting stretched pretty thin now, and will only get stretched thinner.

Obviously, resourse planning thinks there'll be adequate staffing. Time will tell if they're right. If they're wrong, it could be an interesting holiday season - especially if some bad weather gets thrown in.

Jim
 
Not at all. The way the bid works (in the case of recalling furloughees like this bid) is that all active pilots will have a shot at all positions, including the Emb-190 jobs. Once that is complete, there'll be ~15 open jobs left which could be any equipment (as in the 757 F/O jobs left for the last recallees). The furloughees will be offered those ~15 jobs in seniority order till they're all filled.

The only real question is what jobs openings will exist after the active pilots have had their shot. Presumably most/all the Emb-190 F/O jobs, but there's no telling till the bid is awarded.

On the other note, mainline as it now exists (no Emb-190) lost 77 jobs. That was partially offset by the 25 Emb-190 jobs, resulting in a net loss of 52 jobs.

Also, I think I once opined that there'd be somewhere between 50 and 100 recalls by the end of the year. I assumed that the attrition would have to be at least partially offset in addition to staffing for the Emb-190. For October, every base/equip/position has a 90 hour pay cap with some at 95 if I remember the CBS message correctly. The staffing is getting stretched pretty thin now, and will only get stretched thinner.

Obviously, resourse planning thinks there'll be adequate staffing. Time will tell if they're right. If they're wrong, it could be an interesting holiday season - especially if some bad weather gets thrown in.

Jim


Jim,have you noticed at the very end of the bid there are 35 more vacancies than reductions? Does this mean we are waiting for the E190 arbitration award and after that an additional 20 open positions will be put out for bid?
 
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Unfortunately, that table is a little misleading. You can't directly compare that with the headcount numbers and get meaningful info.

The vacancies listed are those that were known when the bid was put together. That means those known to be leaving from positions that will still exist in December. For example, the CLT A330 Captain has 15 jobs in both the last bid and Dec of the new bid, and shows 6 vacancies. That means that 6 of the CLT A330 Captains are leaving for one reason or another, creating vacancies.

It gets more complicated where there are both pilots leaving a position and cuts in that position. The PHL 737 Captain shows 2 vacancies but a reduction of 2 positions. That means some combination of pilots leaving, pilots returning (not recalled pilots), plus the reduction in staffing results in 2 vacancies even though the staffing is being cut. So, for example, 4 pilots could be leaving but 2 of them are the bottom 2 reserves. Those 2 bottom slots are being cut (reducing staffing level by 2) but the 2 senior pilots still leave 2 vacancies.

So, to make a long story short (too late for that!), you can't take the net vacancies/reductions from the table at the end of the bid, add/sbtract that from the Emb-190 openings announced, and come up with anything meaningful.

Jim
 
Thx BB for the great info----looking at the head count--2428 pilots verse approx 6300 we started out with--Iam about ready to puke---many classmates of mine as well as captains/training instructors etc have quit to go with----"gulp"---corporate aviation of all things and other airlines---unprecedented to loose this many highly trained pilots from a major airline----wonder if Capt E B is feeling the heat as this is happening on his watch.
 
[quote name='BoeingBoy' date='Aug 21 2006, 10:32 PM'

So, to make a long story short (too late for that!), you can't take the net vacancies/reductions from the table at the end of the bid, add/sbtract that from the Emb-190 openings announced, and come up with anything meaningful.

Jim
[/quote]



Thanks for that explanation Jim.
 
Neither Payroll or Claims ---no one knows what the rates will be for the 190--except--shhhh--ALPO
 
I'm not sure which "these" you're talking about. When the ~15 vacancies are left over after all active pilots are awarded bids, the recalled folks will choose (in seniority order) which they want. Sorta like a mini-bid only for the recallees.

Jim

I was under the impression that the 190 positions are not going to be available for open bid for active pilots. It appears I was wrong. Won't be the first of last time.

I thought this due to the large training cycle that will occur with an open bid for new equipment and then the mini bid for the recallees. Seems like the training department is in for a big push and scheduling will be very short for the next year.

Thanks again for all the good info you post. Many of us are on the outside looking in with no real good information.
 
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I was under the impression that the 190 positions are not going to be available for open bid for active pilots. It appears I was wrong. Won't be the first of last time.
Heck, if I can be right 50% of the time I'm doing pretty good..... :lol:

Jim
 
Thx PA-12 for the info----BTW my old man re-covered one long ago and stuck a "like new" remaned 0 time Piedmont 108---with the little Aeromatic prop-- no AD's one---what a sweet machine that one was--couple times around the horn to get the prop ajusted right :D -- dang if the owner didnt fly it off old mans strip !
 
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Just wanted to post an update and it wasn't worth a new thread.....

Finish closing the Nov/Dec bid this afternoon (30th). I haven't checked, but the results should have been on the voice response by late afternoon, and in the bases in the morning (31st) if not today.

As was generally expected, the 15 vacancies that will be filled by furloughees are all E-190 F/O. It'll be interesting to see how far down the list the last of those 15 will come from.

Jim
 
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