Pilots, Send in those cards

[Poug Darker]

Hold ALPA's feet to the fire. Send in your card and force Prater and his merry band to actually do something about this mess - or else.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

That's the part you just don't get - ALPA will never touch the award and are delaying only to placate the east in the hopes of avoiding a "decertification." Kinda ironic if you think about it. Getting rid of ALPA will not change the results of the award and will only mean significant financial hardship for US pilots for years and years, and years. No threat or malice intended, just reality Darker.

There's an intelligent solution to this mess...and thats not it.

Hold ALPA's feet to the fire. Send in your card and force Prater and his merry band to actually do something about this mess - or else.

 

[A320 Driver]

There's an intelligent solution to this mess...and thats not it.

I'm listening...???


A320 Driver B)

 

[electricjet98]

Question(s) Comment(s)

I know you are of of our customers PB and will give you the benefit of the doubt that since you are not directly involved in our dispute, your question is based on an honest concern and not an east side bias.

It might not be such a bad idea for both pilot groups to get rid of ALPA and get out from under all of the politics there.

Although, we are also disgusted with ALPA leadership and have in other times considered their ouster, it would simply play into the hands of the east pilots if we were to do anything to support their decert drive at this point. You do recall that their single-minded mantra is to overturn the award, or render it mute in some other way, don't you?

What about future mergers? Suppose US is the aquirer can you not staple say Alaska to the bottom of your seniority list ala AA/TWA?

No. that is an immoral theory avanced by the east. The best way to merge two separate groups with vastly different longevities (DOH) is by releative seniority. The guy at the 10th percentile at one group is placed next to the guy at the 10th percentile at the other group...and so on down the list. The two guys that were at the 10th percentile at their separate airlines will now find themselves at the 10th percentile at the combined airline. With the exception of the 517 east block that were given super-seniority and placed at the top of the combined list, this is how the arbitrator ruled for combining the active, main-line job holding pilots of AAA & AWA.

Wouldn't that be best for the east/west groups?

No, the "bad attitude" and lawsuits created by such an immoral act would haunt us for years.

If US is aquired by an ALPA shop, what is ALPA's position on seniority integration in that circumstance?

Their (ALPA National's) vast financial resources would be pitted against the new unions limited resources in an effort to staple us to the bottom.

Why isn't/wasn't straight DOH with the appropriate "fences" a viable option during negotiations?

You'll get many different answers as to the degree that it was discussed during the "secret" negotiation stage. I can only assume that any proposal forwarded by either side was seen as unacceptable by the other. But, just between you and me , I think some kind of limited fence that allow an agreed upon amount of east/west movement and that sunsets after a limited time will be agreed upon during the final endgame of joint negotiations. Unfortunately we have to go through all of the politcal and legal games before we can get their.

Looks like in the end the company will win this.

Agreed!

 

[Phoenix]

..

What about future mergers? Suppose US is the aquirer can you not staple say Alaska to the bottom of your seniority list ala AA/TWA?

...

Why isn't/wasn't straight DOH with the appropriate "fences" a viable option during negotiations?

DOH with restrictions should always be used. No airline pilot has any conception of seniority appart from DOH. This is just the reality of it. ANYTHING other than DOH is all speulative. Any Agitraitor that chooses to use speculative factors to rearrange DOH is barking up a tree that he can't climb.

If instead an agitraitor declares that DOH is the way it is, subject to a complicated scheme of many subjective restrictions based on speculative factors then everyone will be pissed but the one concrete factor is always there to save the day. Who can agrue with DOH?

Everyone can argue about restrictions and fences but they are by nature speculative and subjective, so the agitraitor has the responsability to decide them. Agitraitors don't decide concrete things, they decide speculative and subjective things. DOH is not subjective. An agitraitor that messes with that can't win. A pilot that complains about a subjective decision on subjective points (and who still has his DOH) also cannot win that argument so the issue is forgoten on the uncertainty and confusion.

DOH will never be forgotten. Complicated restrictions and protections cannot really be concretely determined so they are by nature less contentious.

ALPA: "We can have our cake and eat yours too."

 

[A320 Driver]

DOH with restrictions should always be used. No airline pilot has any conception of seniority appart from DOH. This is just the reality of it. ANYTHING other than DOH is all speulative. Any Agitraitor that chooses to use speculative factors to rearrange DOH is barking up a tree that he can't climb.

If instead an agitraitor declares that DOH is the way it is, subject to a complicated scheme of many subjective restrictions based on speculative factors then everyone will be pissed but the one concrete factor is always there to save the day. Who can agrue with DOH?

Everyone can argue about restrictions and fences but they are by nature speculative and subjective, so the agitraitor has the responsability to decide them. Agitraitors don't decide concrete things, they decide speculative and subjective things. DOH is not subjective. An agitraitor that messes with that can't win. A pilot that complains about a subjective decision on subjective points (and who still has his DOH) also cannot win that argument so the issue is forgoten on the uncertainty and confusion.

DOH will never be forgotten. Complicated restrictions and protections cannot really be concretely determined so they are by nature less contentious.

ALPA: "We can have our cake and eat yours too."

I can't make a blank statement that DOH is good and righteous in all mergers and circumstances. I watched the East Merger Committee's presentations early and it looked to me as if straight DOH was as ugly to the West group as straight ratios were for the East. I asked how we could justify a straight DOH integration and was told we couldn't. What I took away from their presentation was that a combination of DOH, slotting and ratios would be necessary to preserve career expectations on both sides. That is pretty much what Nic said in February also. Now, we have ridden this DOH horse to his death, and with it, any chance of a future partnership with the West pilot group. IMO, both groups were going for the gold and the scales tipped West. ALPA merger policy is what it is and I don't believe Nic was true to it or his final list would have looked like the list he said he envisioned when he cautioned both Merger committees in February.

The consequences of all of this are that the combined pilot group is broken and cannot be repaired. If the company cannot find a way to placate the West group and run separate ops, then this company is in worse peril than anyone realizes. These posts are a testimony to that.

Anyone that believes that if East is successful overturning Nic, then "everything will be OK", is a fool.

Anyone that believes that if West is successful defending Nic, then "everything will be OK", is also a fool.

If we want to keep this company going, then we better figure out something else because if EITHER SIDE wins, the whole company is going to suffer.

A320 Driver

 

[Phoenix]

If we want to keep this company going, then we better figure out something

Keeping the company going is not my concern.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I have posted numerous ideas - no need to waste more bandwidth repeating. I am just sorry that negotiations with the MC's, then mediation, and finally arbitration was not enough to satisfy you guys. Over a million spent in attorney fees by AWA alone and probably another million or two defending Nic and suing east back to the stone age, with ample legal evidence to succeed. Sad state of affairs :down:

I'm listening...???
A320 Driver B)

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I can say for certain one side will not like the final outcome, but the Company will survive and move on with or without you. With the furloughed list finally purged, we will start hiring new pilots that don't carry all of the east baggage. Over time these new young professionals will recognize the stupidity and will likely be the swing vote to finally ratify a joint contract. Might take a few years, but it will happen.

If east is sucessful in "decertifying" ALPA, expect expedited implementation of the Nicolau Award. This is actually the reason why I don't want east to decert - I would rather keep separate for a few years so I can capture attrition here.

I can't make a blank statement that DOH is good and righteous in all mergers and circumstances. I watched the East Merger Committee's presentations early and it looked to me as if straight DOH was as ugly to the West group as straight ratios were for the East. I asked how we could justify a straight DOH integration and was told we couldn't. What I took away from their presentation was that a combination of DOH, slotting and ratios would be necessary to preserve career expectations on both sides. That is pretty much what Nic said in February also. Now, we have ridden this DOH horse to his death, and with it, any chance of a future partnership with the West pilot group. IMO, both groups were going for the gold and the scales tipped West. ALPA merger policy is what it is and I don't believe Nic was true to it or his final list would have looked like the list he said he envisioned when he cautioned both Merger committees in February.

The consequences of all of this are that the combined pilot group is broken and cannot be repaired. If the company cannot find a way to placate the West group and run separate ops, then this company is in worse peril than anyone realizes. These posts are a testimony to that.

Anyone that believes that if East is successful overturning Nic, then "everything will be OK", is a fool.

Anyone that believes that if West is successful defending Nic, then "everything will be OK", is also a fool.

If we want to keep this company going, then we better figure out something else because if EITHER SIDE wins, the whole company is going to suffer.

A320 Driver

 

[Phoenix]

If east is sucessful in "decertifying" ALPA, expect expedited implementation of the Nicolau Award. This is actually the reason why I don't want east to decert - I would rather keep separate for a few years so I can capture attrition here.

If east is successful at decertifying ALPA then who pray tell would deliver the list? It is the job of Prater to turn in the list. Are you suggesting Prater would sign the list and place it on Dougwiesers desk at a time in which he is not the representative of the pilots that are on the list? Hahahahah....

Don't spend too much time being worried about Prater signing the list in such a scenario. And as far as you wantig to keep your attrition there, I am impressed with your simple desires. No one from the East will fight you over your attrttion.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

What legal basis do you think there is to tear up the existing agreements (e.g. TA and Award) after ridding ALPA? Did you not read your own attorneys letter regarding the likelihood of overturning an arbitration award? A new Union would certainly allow you to draft your own constitution and merger policy, but it will do nothing to erase the past. This is a done deal. The weight of the entire legal system will bear down on the new Union to the point of collapse. Please don’t take my word for it, but also don’t stake your future on what your bozo MEC (or USAPA) is telling you. Hire a consultant and seek his legal advice, it won’t be expensive. I married into a bunch of attorneys so I have the benefit of professional advice. Binding is binding and there isn’t anyway out of it, period, so they say. If there is, they want me to let them know how, so I’d appreciate if you find the answer… let me know.

If east is successful at decertifying ALPA then who pray tell would deliver the list? It is the job of Prater to turn in the list. Are you suggesting Prater would sign the list and place it on Dougwiesers desk at a time in which he is not the representative of the pilots that are on the list? Hahahahah....

Don't spend too much time being worried about Prater signing the list in such a scenario. And as far as you wantig to keep your attrition there, I am impressed with your simple desires. No one from the East will fight you over your attrttion.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

No one from the west will fight you over yours either. There, problem solved, now lets' get a contract

And as far as you wantig to keep your attrition there, I am impressed with your simple desires. No one from the East will fight you over your attrttion.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

I can't make a blank statement that DOH is good and righteous in all mergers and circumstances. I watched the East Merger Committee's presentations early and it looked to me as if straight DOH was as ugly to the West group as straight ratios were for the East. I asked how we could justify a straight DOH integration and was told we couldn't. What I took away from their presentation was that a combination of DOH, slotting and ratios would be necessary to preserve career expectations on both sides. That is pretty much what Nic said in February also. Now, we have ridden this DOH horse to his death, and with it, any chance of a future partnership with the West pilot group. IMO, both groups were going for the gold and the scales tipped West. ALPA merger policy is what it is and I don't believe Nic was true to it or his final list would have looked like the list he said he envisioned when he cautioned both Merger committees in February.

The consequences of all of this are that the combined pilot group is broken and cannot be repaired. If the company cannot find a way to placate the West group and run separate ops, then this company is in worse peril than anyone realizes. These posts are a testimony to that.

Anyone that believes that if East is successful overturning Nic, then "everything will be OK", is a fool.

Anyone that believes that if West is successful defending Nic, then "everything will be OK", is also a fool.

If we want to keep this company going, then we better figure out something else because if EITHER SIDE wins, the whole company is going to suffer.

A320 Driver

The Truth!

 

[Phoenix]

What legal basis do you think there is to tear up the existing agreements (e.g. TA and Award) after ridding ALPA? Did you not read your own attorneys letter regarding the likelihood of overturning an arbitration award? A new Union would certainly allow you to draft your own constitution and merger policy, but it will do nothing to erase the past. This is a done deal. The weight of the entire legal system will bear down on the new Union to the point of collapse. Please don’t take my word for it, but also don’t stake your future on what your bozo MEC (or USAPA) is telling you. Hire a consultant and seek his legal advice, it won’t be expensive. I married into a bunch of attorneys so I have the benefit of professional advice. Binding is binding and there isn’t anyway out of it, period, so they say. If there is, they want me to let them know how, so I’d appreciate if you find the answer… let me know.

You didn't answer the question. If ALPA is no longer the representative (that was your hypothosesis), then who will sign the Nic list and put it on Dugweiser's desk? Do you suggest that Prater will sign a list for pilots he does not represent and put that list on Dougweisers desk? Maybe he would. Or maybe he would as a parting shot to the pilots if it looked immenent that they were going to toss him. But right now it just looks like he wants to meet for lunch in very public places with small rooms and lots of exits.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Sorry, yes, ALPA has an obligation to present the list and defend it. Whether Prater presents the list tommorrow or 2 months from now, I could care less, but he will present the list before any new Union is in charge.

You didn't answer the question. If ALPA is no longer the representative (that was your hypothosesis), then who will sign the Nic list and put it on Dugweiser's desk? Do you suggest that Prater will sign a list for pilots he does not represent and put that list on Dougweisers desk? Maybe he would. Or maybe he would as a parting shot to the pilots if it looked immenent that they were going to toss him. But right now it just looks like he wants to meet for lunch in very public places with small rooms and lots of exits.