Ratification Odds

[Hopeful]

HOW ARE YOU "YES" VOTERS GOING TO FEEL WHEN NEXT YEAR WHEN AA STARTS MAKING RECORD PROFITS AND YOU TURN ON THE NEWS AND YOU SEE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS TOASTING CARTY AND TELLING HIM HE DID A FANTASTIC JOB IN TURNING AA AROUND AND BREAKING THE UNIONS AND HERE'S A LITTLE BONUS AND STOCK OPTION PACKAGE FOR YOU! THEN HE'LL RESPOND TO THE CRITICS BY SAYING "WE'LL THE BOARD VOTED TO GIVE ME ALL OF THIS, AND AS YOU KNOW, I TOOK A %33 PAYCUT LAST YEAR. OH BY THE WAY I WOULD LOVE TO SHARE THIS WITH THE WORKERS, BUT I'M SORRY YOU GUYS HAVE A CONTRACT UNTIL 2009!"

 

[MiAAmi]

I think we would be foolish not to pass this T/A. Even if AA does file BK at least we come across as willing to work at a solution. Down the road if we really want a successful company to work at we will have to bite the bullet now. Turning down this TA will seal our fate, and we will have to rely on the sympathy of the creditors. You don''t have to look very far to see how sympathetic they can be ie UNITED and USAirways.

 

[Hopeful]

AAviator:

15% of what? Does it say 15% profit sharing on your annual income? They capped us at 8% when we did have profit sharing. You think they are going to double that? Profit sharing will be paid when AMR nets $500,000,000.00. Let's say AMR makes $500,000,001.00. The one dollar over the $500,000,000.00 will be paid to over the 90,000 employees. But wait! 15% of that one dollar will be paid.
You "YES" voter asswipes are going to be in for a rude awakening.

YOU ARE THE ASSWIPING ASSKISSING SUCKASSES THAT APPLAUD CARTY AT THOSE STAGED TOWN HALL MEETINGS AND YELL "WE'RE WITH YOU, DON!"

ASK THE PEOPLE AT EASTERN WHO HAVE GIVEN MONEY BACK SINCE THE MID SEVENTIES. THEY HAD 25%OWNERSHIP OF THAT COMPANY! WHERE ARE THEY? UNITED EMPLOYEES HAD OVER 55% OWNERSHIP IN THAT COMPANY. WHERE ARE THEY? YOU ASSWIPES ARE GONNA VOTE THIS IN, AMR WILL STILL LOSE MONEY AND YOU WILL EITHER BE ASKED FOR MORE CONCESSIONS OR YOU WILL BE TAKIEN INTO BANKRUPTCY COURT AND WILL HAVE MORE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

 

[Hopeful]

MiAAMI:

BITE THE BULLET???????????????????????????????????

THIS IS A SIX YEAR PIECE OF CRAP. HAVE YOU FIGURED OUT THAT THE STOCK OPTION BULLSHIT COMES OUT TO ABOUT 500 SHARES EACH WITH ONE-FIFTH BEING PAID ANNUALLY FOR THE REMAINING FIVE YEARS? LET''S SAY AFTER SIX YEARS AA STOCK HITS $20. HELL LET''S GO FOR $30. SO AFTER SIX YEARS YOU CAN HAVE $15,000.00 IN AA STOCK. SOUNDS LIKE ALOT, DOESN''T IT? BUT AS A MECHANIC, I WOULD HAVE GIVEN BACK ABOUT $120,000.OO IN SALARY AND HOLIDAY PAY AND VACATION PAY.

 

[WXGuesser]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 9:02:07 AM Hopeful wrote:

HOW ARE YOU "YES" VOTERS GOING TO FEEL WHEN NEXT YEAR WHEN AA STARTS MAKING RECORD PROFITS AND YOU TURN ON THE NEWS AND YOU SEE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS TOASTING CARTY AND TELLING HIM HE DID A FANTASTIC JOB IN TURNING AA AROUND AND BREAKING THE UNIONS AND HERE''S A LITTLE BONUS AND STOCK OPTION PACKAGE FOR YOU! THEN HE''LL RESPOND TO THE CRITICS BY SAYING "WE''LL THE BOARD VOTED TO GIVE ME ALL OF THIS, AND AS YOU KNOW, I TOOK A %33 PAYCUT LAST YEAR. OH BY THE WAY I WOULD LOVE TO SHARE THIS WITH THE WORKERS, BUT I''M SORRY YOU GUYS HAVE A CONTRACT UNTIL 2009!"

----------------​

I would feel pretty good, because that means the company is doing well, possibly looking at more routes & more locations, which means more stations, which means more jobs throughout the company. And we even get a little slice of that pie in profit sharing if we approve the contract.

Hopeful, businesses exist to make money, not as support mechanisms for their employees'' lifestyles. The company isn''t obligated to pay you a d@mn thing above and beyond minimum wage set by the Government. But they choose to get and keep skilled people by offering excellent wages.

I''m with MiAAmi and the rest of the yes voters on this one.

TANSTAAFL

 

[AAviator]

Record profit? You''ll be getting 15% in profit sharing. Putting you close to where you are now pay wise. Hopeful, have you looked out the window lately? Is 5 mil a day in losses a lie? With some sense, tell me how voting this down would be better. 5 mil a day in losses for a year comes out to 1.8 billion$. Now picture this, you have to sit across a table from a lender,.. is he less willing or more willing to lend you money if your losses are 5 mil a day, or next to no losses daily?

 

[MiAAmi]

I would rather risk AMR making record profits than to risk a Bankruptcy judge telling me that I need to dig deeper. I''ll leave my EGO out of this, My creditors don''t care about my issues with how much Don Carty makes. Job security is more important to me than 15.6% of my pay.

 

[FWAAA]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 1051 AM Hopeful wrote:

FWAAA: Can you afford to by the tens of thousands of AMR stock that will insure your retirement? Buying a thousand shares will never make you rich.

By the way, don''t you think it''s ironic that AA is losing 5 million dollars aday and if you multiply that 5 million a day loss by 365 days, it just about equals the 1.8 billion dollars AA is seeking. They want to be profitable just by cutting wages and benefits but they do not want to change their business plan.

And I WISH AA NEVER WASTED THE BILLIONS TO BUT TWA. OPERATIONALLY, AA LOST 1 BILLION DOLLARS JUST FROM THE COST OF OPERATING THEM.

----------------​

I bought an awful lot of AMR for less than $1.50 during the last two weeks.

Too bad the employees with the most to lose weren''t willing to take the gamble; 10,000 shares that cost $13,000 to $14,000 on Monday morning are currently worth $43,700.

I bought significantly more than that. It''s been a good week.

I doubt that new pickup or boat in the driveway has appreciated at all in the last 3 days.

 

[Hopeful]

How do you feel about management taking less of a cut than the unionized employees?

 

[Hopeful]

HOW DO FEEL ABOUT MANAGEMENT TAKING LESS OF A PAYCUT THAN YOU?
WHAT HAPPENED TO SHARED SACRIFICES?


Active Engagement Restructuring

Management Changes at a Glance

Complete details on these components and information on other changes will be published as they become available.


PAY - Individual management base salaries will be reduced between 4 percent and 15 percent, using a graduated scale with incremental reductions based on your annual salary. The scale for level 1-8 employees is as follows:

Salary reduction steps Percent decrease
First $30,000 and under 4%
Next $30,001 - $60,000 7%
Next $60,001 - $90,000 10%
Amount from $90,001 and over 13.5%


For officers, the scale extends up to a 17% reduction. Chairman Don Carty''s reduction is 33%.

Officer pay cuts are effective April 1, 2003, all other management reductions are effective May 1, 2003.


PRODUCTIVITY & STAFFING - Implement an immediate 5 percent reduction in management positions. Pay severance in monthly installments rather than a lump sum. Reduce layoff notification from 30 days to 14 days.


VACATION - Cap maximum vacation accrual at 6 weeks (30 days).


HOLIDAYS & HOLIDAY PAY - Retain 10 paid holidays per year. Discontinue holiday pay for management and offer comp time whenever possible, based on operational requirements.


SICK TIME - Reduce accrual to 5 days per year, maintaining current 150-day accrual cap. Continue paying sick time at 100% of salary.


MEDICAL & DENTAL PLANS - Increase monthly contributions to approximately 15 percent of medical plan costs. Maintain current levels of coverage and plan design. Costs will vary depending on the plan selected and the number of dependents covered. No changes to the Dental Plan.


PENSION - No changes.


RETIREE MEDICAL - Discontinue prefunding and refund contributions. Establish two retiree medical plans, a Pre-65 plan and a 65 and over plan. Retirees pay a monthly contribution for coverage based on a percentage of average retiree medical plan costs.


Other Articles

Active Engagement Restructuring Changes (4/1/2003)

Active Engagement Restructuring (4/1/2003)

Working Together (4/1/2003)

Active Engagement Restructuring (4/2/2003)

Working Together (4/1/2003)

Executive Compensation (4/1/2003)

Working Together (4/1/2003)

(More...)



755 / 3461 / 2634



EXAMPLE FOR A MANAGEMENT PERSON MAKING $70,000.00 PER YEAR:

FIRST $30,000.00 X 4% = $1,200.00
NEXT $30,000.00 X 7% = $2,100.00
NEXT $10,000.00 X 10% = $1,000.00
------------------------------------
$4,300.00 PAYCUT FOR A MANAGEMENT EARNING $70,000.

THIS IS ROUGHLY A 6% PAYCUT FOR A SUPERVISOR MAKING $70,000.00 AS OPPOSED TO THE REST OF THE MECHANICS 17.5% CUT!

 

[FWAAA]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 1057 AM Bob Owens wrote:

What makes you so sure that the Company will get what it wants?

I do agree with the statement that a slim chance is better than none. As you said, there is a slim chance that the company will not go BK.
If we vote YES there is "no" chance that we will be making more in 2009 than we are today. If we vote NO there is. I would rather take the chance that the company might not go BK or if the do , not get their Vermont plan and that we can continue to maintain benifits and living standards.

----------------​

Has there ever been an airline bankruptcy that was GOOD for the rank and file employees? Ever?

How well did the employees fare over at CO or TWA or HP during their bankruptcies?

How are your brothers and sisters faring at USAir or UAL?

Keep denying reality - some are better at it than others.

I hope you''re not as confident that the Easter Bunny is coming to your house or that next Crhristmas is going to be financed by Santa Claus.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 904 AM Hopeful wrote:

AAviator:

15% of what? Does it say 15% profit sharing on your annual income? They capped us at 8% when we did have profit sharing. You think they are going to double that? Profit sharing will be paid when AMR nets $500,000,000.00. Let's say AMR makes $500,000,001.00. The one dollar over the $500,000,000.00 will be paid to over the 90,000 employees. But wait! 15% of that one dollar will be paid.
You "YES" voter asswipes are going to be in for a rude awakening.

YOU ARE THE ASSWIPING ASSKISSING SUCKASSES THAT APPLAUD CARTY AT THOSE STAGED TOWN HALL MEETINGS AND YELL "WE'RE WITH YOU, DON!"

ASK THE PEOPLE AT EASTERN WHO HAVE GIVEN MONEY BACK SINCE THE MID SEVENTIES. THEY HAD 25%OWNERSHIP OF THAT COMPANY! WHERE ARE THEY? UNITED EMPLOYEES HAD OVER 55% OWNERSHIP IN THAT COMPANY. WHERE ARE THEY? YOU ASSWIPES ARE GONNA VOTE THIS IN, AMR WILL STILL LOSE MONEY AND YOU WILL EITHER BE ASKED FOR MORE CONCESSIONS OR YOU WILL BE TAKIEN INTO BANKRUPTCY COURT AND WILL HAVE MORE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

----------------​

In typical AA/TWU fashion the profit sharing is misleading. We are not getting 15% Profit sharing as compared to the old plan that had an 8% cap(and minimums). There is no minimum here. This profit sharing distrubutes 15% of those profits in excess of $500,000 to the profit sharing fund.

If the company is in as bad of a shape as they claim they are in there will never be a distribution from this fund. If there is likely to be a distribution from this fund in the next six years then our paycuts are not needed.

That said I must add that there is now way that profit sharing could possibly even come close to making up for lost wages. The company would have to have a minimum annual profit of $27,000,000,000. In AAs best year I believe they made $1 billion. That would equate to around $750 profit sharing for each employee. It would cost us $20,000 for the possibility of getting at best a $750 profit sharing check.

 

[WXGuesser]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 904 AM Hopeful wrote:

AAviator:


ARE GONNA VOTE THIS IN, AMR WILL STILL LOSE MONEY AND YOU WILL EITHER BE ASKED FOR MORE CONCESSIONS OR YOU WILL BE TAKIEN INTO BANKRUPTCY COURT AND WILL HAVE MORE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

----------------​

Or maybe not... That''s the point. If the vote is "no", then the company will go into bankruptcy and get the "Vermont plan" cuts, which are worse than what they are asking for now. If the vote is "yes", they might or might not go into bankruptcy. While I feel that the possiblity they will *not* go ahead and go into bankruptcy is slim, a slim chance is better than no chance, IMHO.

Also excuse me for deleting your ad hominem attacks from your above post. They serve no purpose towards making your or my point.

TANSTAAFL

 

[FA Mikey]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 1051 AM Hopeful wrote:

FWAAA: Can you afford to by the tens of thousands of AMR stock that will insure your retirement? Buying a thousand shares will never make you rich.

By the way, don''t you think it''s ironic that AA is losing 5 million dollars aday and if you multiply that 5 million a day loss by 365 days, it just about equals the 1.8 billion dollars AA is seeking. They want to be profitable just by cutting wages and benefits but they do not want to change their business plan.

And I WISH AA NEVER WASTED THE BILLIONS TO BUT TWA. OPERATIONALLY, AA LOST 1 BILLION DOLLARS JUST FROM THE COST OF OPERATING THEM.

----------------​

We were losing 5 million a prior to the start of the war. I can only hope we are losing only that much right now. These cuts will not make AA profitable. We have a long way to go and billions to pay back before that happens.

 

[WXGuesser]

----------------
On 4/3/2003 1057 AM Bob Owens wrote:

----------------
On 4/3/2003 10:06:47 AM WXGuesser wrote:

If the vote is "no", then the company will go into bankruptcy and get the "Vermont plan" cuts, which are worse than what they are asking for now. If the vote is "yes", they might or might not go into bankruptcy. While I feel that the possiblity they will *not* go ahead and go into bankruptcy is slim, a slim chance is better than no chance, IMHO.

Also excuse me for deleting your ad hominem attacks from your above post. They serve no purpose towards making your or my point.

TANSTAAFL


----------------​

What makes you so sure that the Company will get what it wants?

I do agree with the statement that a slim chance is better than none. As you said, there is a slim chance that the company will not go BK.
If we vote YES there is "no" chance that we will be making more in 2009 than we are today. If we vote NO there is. I would rather take the chance that the company might not go BK or if the do , not get their Vermont plan and that we can continue to maintain benifits and living standards.

----------------​

Give me one example where a company hasn''t gotten what they wanted from a bankruptcy judge.

You don''t seem to understand... this is not a negotiation process . The company goes to the judge and says "this is what we need to keep operating." The judge either says yes or no. And in this economy and under this administration, there ain''t no way you or anyone else is going to keep their current VERY HIGH standard of living when this matter goes to a judge. The judge has to take into account the creditors a company has. And guess what? Employees are way down on that list. Get used to it.

Hopeful said:

----------------

By the way, WXGUESSER! Bob Owens had the balls to keep my asswiping comparisons in his quoted reply!

----------------​

And that in and of itself should tell you something. Talk about "class" warfare, or lack thereof...

TANSTAAFL