Siegel: Pittsburgh hub ''marginal''

[FlyingHippie]

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On 5/6/2003 3:01:15 PM mrman wrote:


I think what is enlightening in this debate is no one is discussing the airports from a passenger point of view.  The discussions don''t even discuss IMHO what should be the number one desicion maker, the customer

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MrMan excellent point. But as you can see the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS to Dave and the gang is M-O-N-E-Y. Not that money is not important but its vauled more than employees and passengers. Funny thing is you can''t make M-O-N-E-Y without happy employees or customers. What a concept! Maybe thats why Southwest and Jetblue do well and the rest just suck.

 

[Rudy]

One thing I haven''t heard yet...regarding the "Cost" of connecting passengers through hubs i.e. PIT vs. PHL.

I am a Captain based in PIT. There has been much discussion about how expensive ($7) per passenger to fly through PIT. Last night, I left PHL and was #40 for takeoff. I had delays inbound twice. These experiences required JET FUEL. JET FUEL costs money.

PIT''s delay''s are minimal compared to Philly. It is myoptic to only view the "Airport Cost" vs. the total cost to connect say a passenger from BUF-PIT-MSY as compared to BUF-PHL-MSY.

If you don''t beleive me, just compare the block times involved.

Jet Fuel costs have to be factored in, otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges.

The jet I fly consumes about 100 pounds a minute at HIGH altitude cruise. More at low altitude.

Someone call these people to task on this.........

 

[sfb]

DCAflyer-

#1: The two hubs three hundred miles apart makes sense primarily for historical reasons and operational reasons. Given that US already had its largest hub at PIT, given that PHL became available as a result of the failures of Eastern and Midway, and given the airline''s market share dominance in the Northeast (and the money that could be made at PHL), it made sense to build up the PHL hub. Today, it only makes sense given that PHL is often overburdened and connecting traffic ought to be directed away from PHL and toward PIT. But the operational need for a big connecting operation at PIT has diminished given that US'' Northeast market share has dwindled considerably and fewer people are flying period.

#2: Having three hubs all within 450 miles of each other makes little sense. But this was a decision that was made 15 years ago when USAir bought Piedmont, largely to subsume one of its largest competitors. And it made plenty of sense when there was far less competition in the Northeast.

But today, what options does US really have? IND is still a considerably smaller market than PIT (roughly 70% the size of PIT), doesn''t have adequate terminal facilities to support a hub, and *building* that shiny new terminal is going to cost big bucks! AA hasn''t left STL and WN would very likely ramp up service there to take advantage of a "market opportunity." US has tried MCI and failed. And I don''t really see why United would be interested in giving up anything at DEN which they could fly themselves profitably.

#3: Actually, CLT is a smaller O&D market than PIT (roughly 20% smaller as of a year ago). CLT does have higher yields and lower costs, though. But it certainly can be argued that US''s higher costs at PIT are largely of its own doing. The county''s costs for bond service are largely fixed; reducing the number of passengers connecting at PIT will certainly increase the cost per head. But Charlotte''s population is growing while Pittsburgh''s is not, and CLT serves markets which PHL and PIT cannot.

#4: Again, what guarantees that IND will have lower facility costs than PIT when the new terminal is constructed, and would you REALLY want to go up against ATA and Southwest in a market which both have served for many years?

The problem for US Airways is that they really don''t have any better options than PIT. Is someone in BUF, CMH, DAY, IND, or GRR, for example, going to be willing to fly back east to PHL to go to ORD, DEN, IAH, LAX, SEA, etc. or will they just choose to connect at ORD, CVG, STL, or DTW? PHL can''t handle a lot more traffic as it stands, and CLT is not a terribly strong O&D market. It seems the whole RJ strategy is based on making PIT look a lot like CVG and CLE -- but the PIT facilities are sized for an operation that looks like DEN.

The problem for Pittsburgh and the county is that they have no guarantees that someone else (like Southwest or AirTran) would come in and add a bunch of service in the event of a US Airways pulldown, not to mention the job losses in maintenance and ramp/agents at the hub (I imagine that many PIT-based pilots and f/a''s would commute). But they''d also be left holding the bag on a ton of debt.

 

[CLIPPEDWINGS]

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On 5/2/2003 6:49:05 PM LavMan wrote:


Trvlr, you are wrong, guess you have not been to CLT this past summer when they just opened an exclusive brand new express terminal.

And to PHX, they are not deadbeat renters, US Airways is paying the same rent as the lease states, the leases are terminated in January of 2004.




1990 New 80,000 square-foot international and commuter concourse opens. USAir establishes hangar maintenance base. Twin parking decks open. Queen Charlotte sculpture placed in airport''s courtyard.

1991 Passenger terminal expansion underway. Charlotte Air Cargo Center established.

1998 US Airways establishes Airbus crew training base and begins construction on new training facility.

1999 Plans are announced for the construction of a regional carrier concourse, Concourse E and expansion of Concourses A and D.

2001 New line hangar opens.

2002 US Airways Express begins service out of a new 95,000 square foot facility at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport.





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I have to agree with trvlr in one respect. PIT was the focus center about 10 years ago. Yes, recently PHL and CLT have been getting their "face lifts". During that time did PIT need it? NO! IT WAS BRAN-SPANKIN-NEW. US Airways has always been huge in PIT. Back in the mid 90''s US was making cash (yes, in PIT too). Pittsburgh could have a bright future. It is the furthest hub to the west. Why go east to PHL or SE to CLT to go West? This management team just doesn''t want PIT.

I will DIS agree on one of trvlr''s comments about getting over PIT''s closure. Yes, to a pax it doesn''t make a difference. To the city it wouldn''t make a difference if it were Delta, Northwest or whomever, but to the loyal employees that have suffered through these last 2 years....IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERNCE IN THE WORLD.

 

[willnotworkforfree]

But to Dave and Dave..no difference in the world...Because in their eyes..U...do not be of any importance..in the Corporate World.

 

[trvlr64]

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On 5/10/2003 10:35:31 PM CLIPPEDWINGS wrote:

I will DIS agree on one of trvlr''s comments about getting over PIT''s closure. Yes, to a pax it doesn''t make a difference.  To the city it wouldn''t make a difference if it were Delta, Northwest or whomever, but to the loyal employees that have suffered through these last 2 years....IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERNCE IN THE WORLD.

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ClippedWings I will agree with you too on this point. I have a lot of friends in the Pgh area that are F/A''s and gate agents. I know they are worried about their future with U and here in Pgh and I worry for them. But other friends of mine that have worked for U and have left say it was the best thing they ever did. 2 very good friends moved into the hotel business and are making a lot more money and are very happy. There is life after U for you and PIT. But most Pittsburghers are afraid to find this out I think. We tend to become complacent in our surroundings and don''t try or are afraid to try new job opportunities.

Good luck.

 

[PITbull]

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On 5/11/2003 8:28:20 AM trvlr64 wrote:

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On 5/10/2003 10:35:31 PM CLIPPEDWINGS wrote:

I will DIS agree on one of trvlr's comments about getting over PIT's closure. Yes, to a pax it doesn't make a difference. To the city it wouldn't make a difference if it were Delta, Northwest or whomever, but to the loyal employees that have suffered through these last 2 years....IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERNCE IN THE WORLD.


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ClippedWings I will agree with you too on this point. I have a lot of friends in the Pgh area that are F/A's and gate agents. I know they are worried about their future with U and here in Pgh and I worry for them. But other friends of mine that have worked for U and have left say it was the best thing they ever did. 2 very good friends moved into the hotel business and are making a lot more money and are very happy. There is life after U for you and PIT. But most Pittsburghers are afraid to find this out I think. We tend to become complacent in our surroundings and don't try or are afraid to try new job opportunities.

Good luck.



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I would have to agree with you travlr. Its not that Pittsburgh is such a great resourceful, land of opportunity city...its mostly about the folks here. They are the most friendly, down to earth, very well connected, proud ethnocentric, yet blended community. And the great part is that we may not have beaches but we eat so well here. There's tons of night life and the restaurants are great. And if you want to lose weight, don't worry, the hills will kill ya.


"What a town"!

 

[tay]

I am not from pit but I was held captive there for five long years before I moved on. I have lived in DC, LAX, and other parts of the country. Pittsburgh was unique. It was by far the rudest most god awful place I ever lived. Adn what is with those property taxes????? Just go to a Giant Eagle and say hello to a cashier and they look at you like you have three heads. RUDE RUDE RUDE., that is how I sum up Pittsburgh. My point is this....Pittsburgh and their folks think that they are owned something....they are not. I am sorry for all of those people who thought that their lives would never change. The same people who gripped when SAN LAX and SFO came from the west coast and bumped their seniority. Well, at least you can move on to a base in your own state. Hello Reality time is here and it has hit the 412 area code.............

 

[ClueByFour]

If you found people in PIT to be more rude that LA or WAS, I can only assume you were both blind and deaf after having moved from PIT.

While I hate many of the local politics in PIT (And to a certain extend, PA), the people of Western PA are about as friendly as I''ve found, anywhere.

OK. The folks in AMS might be friendier. That might driven by other factors...

 

[cavalier]

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On 5/12/2003 6:17:30 AM PineyBob wrote:

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On 5/11/2003 10:35:25 PM tay wrote:

I am not from pit but I was held captive there for five long years before I moved on. I have lived in DC, LAX, and other parts of the country. Pittsburgh was unique. It was by far the rudest most god awful place I ever lived. Adn what is with those property taxes????? Just go to a Giant Eagle and say hello to a cashier and they look at you like you have three heads. RUDE RUDE RUDE., that is how I sum up Pittsburgh. My point is this....Pittsburgh and their folks think that they are owned something....they are not. I am sorry for all of those people who thought that their lives would never change. The same people who gripped when SAN LAX and SFO came from the west coast and bumped their seniority. Well, at least you can move on to a base in your own state. Hello Reality time is here and it has hit the 412 area code.............

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Well having grown up in the PHL metro area and traveled quite a bit, I have learned one thing. Nice is everywhere and so is Nasty. Your attitude and approach has more to do with the response then any locale does. Perhaps you''d like me to relate some of experiences with the self absorbed and superficial population for sunny California? Property tax is determined by how the schools are funded, NOT by the friendliness of the population or lack thereof. Taxes in NJ are at least double what they are in PA. Sounds to me that in order to keep your job you had to bump someone and move East, bringing your West Coast attitude of superiority with you. People sense that and when you are on their home turf then tend to remind you. Just the condescending attitude on this post speaks volumes. Sorry you hated PA so. But it sounds like PA and you are better off without each other, after all how could someone like yourself suffer such fools given your advanced state of evolution?
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Thanks for the sanity Bob.

Some and NOT all the people who came to Pit from Ca were bitter and hateful taking it out on their surroundings. One guy who ended up going back and now living in CA told me everything is too old in Pit, too dirty and how could anyone even stand to live here. This guy and guys like him hated themselves. On the other hand I can name ten people who moved here and told me they are never going back to CA, mostly because it was over crowed and homes cost way too much in CA. Another CA friend of mine is still commuting weekly and has been doing this for 13 years, his daughter went to Pit College, he and his daughter both loved it here. His daughter is back in Ca now married and he still commutes. He has a small business in Ca and why he never moved. Some guys from the south were the same way, some bitter others not, it''s the person, just like Bob said, it''s not the location. It''s actually ridiculously funny when you really think about it, everyone says people in CA are out there, and people in CA think they are normal and the rest of the world is screwed up It''s all one’s point of view, an insane person thinks everyone is nuts except themselves.

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Thanks for the sanity Bob.

Some and NOT all the people who came to Pit from Ca were bitter and hateful taking it out on their surroundings. One guy who ended up going back and now living in CA told me everything is too old in Pit, too dirty and how could anyone even stand to live here. This guy and guys like him hated themselves. On the other hand I can name ten people who moved here and told me they are never going back to CA, mostly because it was over crowed and homes cost way too much in CA. Another CA friend of mine is still commuting weekly and has been doing this for 13 years, his daughter went to Pit College, he and his daughter both loved it here. His daughter is back in Ca now married and he still commutes. He has a small business in Ca and why he never moved. Some guys from the south were the same way, some bitter others not, it''s the person, just like Bob said, it''s not the location. It''s actually ridiculously funny when you really think about it, everyone says people in CA are out there, and people in CA think they are normal and the rest of the world is screwed up It''s all one’s point of view, an insane person thinks everyone is nuts except themselves.
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[pitflyer]

These discussions, no matter how hard we try, always seem to denigrate into a pissing contest between cities. The short answer is that no one city is for everyone. I left New York City for Pittsburgh and my family still can''t believe I would rather live anywhere than the Big Apple. Of course, several million other people disagree, and good for them. But for me, little big-city living in Pittsburgh is the only way to go.

That''s why for most of us it is nice to be mobile and be able to chose our surroundings. For those of us who are forced to relocate, some of us will already come with a chip on their shoulder, making any experience poor. Others will simply have a bad experience that will color their perception of the city forever... like a person I know who witnessed a murder the first day he visited a new city. It''s tough to get over some first impressions!

 

[delldude]

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On 5/11/2003 10:35:25 PM tay wrote:

I am not from pit but I was held captive there for five long years before I moved on. if was so terrible,why then did it take "5 long years" to leave? I have lived in DC, LAX, and other parts of the country. Pittsburgh was unique. It was by far the rudest most god awful place I ever lived. so you''ve never been to detroit,eh?Adn what is with those property taxes????? Just go to a Giant Eagle and say hello to a cashier and they look at you like you have three heads.always a shop ''n save around the corner. RUDE RUDE RUDE.(talkin'' to me?) , that is how I sum up Pittsburgh. My point is this....Pittsburgh and their folks think that they are owned (lester nobody ''owns dis boy)something....they are not. I am sorry for all of those people who thought that their lives would never change(.keep your 25 cent pity,we don''t need it) The same people who gripped (got something you can grip)when SAN LAX and SFO came from the west coast and bumped their seniority. Well, at least you can move on to a base in your own state. Hello Reality time is here and it has hit the 412 area code.............waa waa waa

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[tay]

Hey,
Thanks for showing me the light. You are all correct. What a fool I was leave the industrial waste crap-town of Pittsburgh. The city of three dirty rivers. I still stand my original statement. Pittsburgh is one of the rudest cities in America.
Hope yunz have fun working for express.......

 

[ClueByFour]

You realize, of course, that DC used to be a malarial swamp.

You have been down the Harbor Freeway in LA, no? Or seen that smoggy stuff hanging over the LA basin on any given day, right?

If I gave you a choice of drinking out of the Mon or the LA River, which would you choose?

 

[the turtle]

Just wondering, where does Dave live?