Supervisors/Managers get booted

[Barfbag]

Word out is that many supervisors and managers got the boot after the re-interview process was completed.
Results are out for some stations. I heard the ones that did not make the cut will be allowed to interview for other
positions at other stations. Sounds like a take it or leave it since they were not wanted at their current station.
Not a good time to be in management.

Most of the managers, I've been in contact with have very little people or operational skills, they tend to be recently pushed-up administrative/office people, who quickly get bogged down in following-up employee attendance matters with little input of the flight by flight situation.

If there's a problem on gate 3, with an employee not showing up for an assignment, the CSM hides on gate 5. He/she sits hides there until the assigned CC, handles the problem with no follow-up and or disciplinary action towards the missing employee.

 

[Boomer]

Maybe if you were talking about guys with broader airline experience. but, because M&E requires the supervisors and managers to have their A&P, it's unlikely that they have the skills that make them marketable for a HDQ job. Their best bet would be downgrading into a L3 CSM job over fleet service.

There is no parachute when your job is eliminated. At that level, it used to be two weeks of severence for every year of service, up to six months. If you're close to 50, they might bridge you to early retirement. Otherwise, you're screwed.

For Gods' sake Man,

You actually associated the posession of an Airframe & Powerplant Certification from the Federal Aviation Administration as a disqualifying condition for Executive Employment.

Have you discussed this matter with Gordon Bethune?

You are the best example of why the uncertificated should never be allowed to manage those that posess same. If you know that your actions could result in revocation of your certification and termination of employment as result; you are far less likely to engage in that type of conduct.

 

[Hackman]

Maybe if you were talking about guys with broader airline experience. but, because M&E requires the supervisors and managers to have their A&P, it's unlikely that they have the skills that make them marketable for a HDQ job. Their best bet would be downgrading into a L3 CSM job over fleet service.

There is no parachute when your job is eliminated. At that level, it used to be two weeks of severence for every year of service, up to six months. If you're close to 50, they might bridge you to early retirement. Otherwise, you're screwed.

What kind of special "skills" would a Center Pork address entail? Cash checks? Play golf? Put out missives pertaining to; "You peons just do not see the "big picture", but we the omnipotent MBA porkers's do?

I just have to know.

Would a "Pull it Together, To Come Together" storyline require a very "special" set of skills that you only learn in the "Big Leagues"?

A greasy used car salesmen in a nice Armani suit comes to mind. :blink:

 

[777 fixer]

I've noticed one thing. The majority of those given the boot are on nights. That's where most of the "not in the in crowd" are usually put.

 

[flyhigh]

I think it's pretty obvious what eolsen is referring to. How many AMT's possess a strong background in finance? Marketing? Revenue Management? Route Planning? Internal Audit? CRM? Loyalty Marketing? Pricing?

 

[TWU informer]

I think it's pretty obvious what eolsen is referring to. How many AMT's possess a strong background in finance? Marketing? Revenue Management? Route Planning? Internal Audit? CRM? Loyalty Marketing? Pricing?

The real question is how many of them can hire consulting firms to run the corporation?

 

[eolesen]

You actually associated the posession of an Airframe & Powerplant Certification from the Federal Aviation Administration as a disqualifying condition for Executive Employment.

No, but if someone like PTO can get the same certification, it's also hardly an indicator that being certified implies you can exhibit basic common sense...

Is Carmine Romano the best pick to be an executive? Bill Culhane? Bob Reding? They all have their FAA certifications, too...

By the same measure, was Bob Baker or Dick Pearson unqualified to oversee Maintenance or even Flight Ops? I didn't think they were, but perhaps you feel differently.

Have you discussed this matter with Gordon Bethune?

Haven't discussed it with Gordon, but I'll make a note of it next time we see each other... Go re-read what I wrote. I said it's unlikely that a L4 supervisor is going to have what it takes to land a HDQ job. Gordon didn't go straight from being a MOD at Love Field into an office at 747 Braniff Place... He stayed within the domain of maintenance, working his way up and picking up the rest of the airline business skills that made him marketable. He's the exception to a lot of rules.

You are the best example of why the uncertificated should never be allowed to manage those that posess same. If you know that your actions could result in revocation of your certification and termination of employment as result; you are far less likely to engage in that type of conduct.

Really, now... What have I ever done that shows a disregard for FAR's? If anything, I've been accused of being over-cautious...

Do you think the consequences around revoked certificates are unique to airline workers? Get a grip already. It's no different than having to steer clear of being disbarred, having a teaching certificate revoked, or losing a professional engineering license. Any one of those would be a "game over" for one's career.

Knowing the conditions which can force someone into territory which risks a certificate action is something anyone with common sense should be able to understand and abide by. By your logic, all crew schedulers should have pilots licenses because they might overschedule someone and force them over a limit.

 

[lpbrian]

I think it's pretty obvious what eolsen is referring to. How many AMT's possess a strong background in finance? Marketing? Revenue Management? Route Planning? Internal Audit? CRM? Loyalty Marketing? Pricing?

Flight operations maybe? Engineering? I'm sure many posess a college degree.

 

[777 fixer]

Maybe if you were talking about guys with broader airline experience. but, because M&E requires the supervisors and managers to have their A&P, it's unlikely that they have the skills that make them marketable for a HDQ job. Their best bet would be downgrading into a L3 CSM job over fleet service.

There is no parachute when your job is eliminated. At that level, it used to be two weeks of severence for every year of service, up to six months. If you're close to 50, they might bridge you to early retirement. Otherwise, you're screwed.

Here's the problem I have with what you said. It was a about a year ago or so that you basically sated that an A&P license should not be a requirement to be a supervisor. That way the company could get new blood into the ranks at M&E. However you are now basically saying that someone from within the ranks of maintenance does not have what it takes to work in another part of the company. This seems to be a contradiction. What does someone from say customer service, the ramp, finance, flight ops etc know about how M&E operates. Are you saying that someone from one of these departments has the skills to work in M&E but someone from M&E does not have the skills to work in somewhere else within the company?

 

[Bob Owens]

No, but if someone like PTO can get the same certification, it's also hardly an indicator that being certified implies you can exhibit basic common sense...

We have PTO and management types have you, seems that every group has their burden to carry.

Go re-read what I wrote. I said it's unlikely that a L4 supervisor is going to have what it takes to land a HDQ job. Gordon didn't go straight from being a MOD at Love Field into an office at 747 Braniff Place... He stayed within the domain of maintenance, working his way up and picking up the rest of the airline business skills that made him marketable. He's the exception to a lot of rules.

Like Richard Branson, Bill gates and some of the most successful wealth producers in history.

Really, now... What have I ever done that shows a disregard for FAR's? If anything, I've been accused of being over-cautious...

No, you have been accused of making them up, then when you were called on it you wouldnt concede you were wrong.

 

[FWAAA]

No, you have been accused of making them up, then when you were called on it you wouldnt concede you were wrong.

Only a horse's ass would gloat as much as you have over such an inconsequential issue. Stop impersonating a pimply faced 13 year old and start acting like a 20+ year A & P. Adult professionals know when to stop rubbing something in, Mr Owens.

 

[Bob Owens]

Only a horse's ass would gloat as much as you have over such an inconsequential issue. Stop impersonating a pimply faced 13 year old and start acting like a 20+ year A & P. Adult professionals know when to stop rubbing something in, Mr Owens.

Am I supposed to consider that a dignified response? He brought up the FARs and portrayed his actions inaccurately and I called him on it. You call it gloating, I call it setting things straight.

 

[TWU informer]

The real question is how many of the A&P Licensed employees would have the ability to hire the consulting firms to run the corporation? Easy ALL OF THEM!

 

[eolesen]

It doesn't matter what the facts are -- if I post something, Bob Owens will take the opposing view.... no point even rebutting him.

Some of you have said time and time again that most supervisors are worthless, and are simply bootlickers who got promoted for being talented under the desk. Now, you're saying that they're a bunch of Gordon Bethune's-in-waiting and capable of running HDQ because they're FAA certified???

Here's the problem I have with what you said. It was a about a year ago or so that you basically sated that an A&P license should not be a requirement to be a supervisor. That way the company could get new blood into the ranks at M&E. However you are now basically saying that someone from within the ranks of maintenance does not have what it takes to work in another part of the company. This seems to be a contradiction. What does someone from say customer service, the ramp, finance, flight ops etc know about how M&E operates. Are you saying that someone from one of these departments has the skills to work in M&E but someone from M&E does not have the skills to work in somewhere else within the company?

No, I'm not saying that at all. There are definitely people within M&E who are capable of working elsewhere. But, back to the point of this thread, I seriously doubt they're the same guys who got RIF'd.

I worked with a lot of the L4's from AFW and TUL, and some of them were pretty bright. I actually hired a guy ten years ago who started out at AFW, but he'd learned programming on his own time, and also earned his MBA while working at the base. So sure, there are guys who capable of moving laterally into other areas.

I also worked with a bunch of L4's, MOD's, and even a few MD's who were pretty worthless as far as their knowledge outside of TUL went. (sounds a lot like the TWU?....).

Because of the A&P requirement, most of M&E's management is inbred from the front lines, and that's why you'll never see changes in how things are done. Period. The few that know how to do things better won't rock the boat, and instead tolerate decades of bad leadership, including Carmine, Culhane, and I'm sure there were plenty of other examples.

It's also my guess as to why the TWU is so buddy-buddy with TUL management. They all used to work together...

Ralph Grunhof, former MOD at TUL, got up at a staff meeting once to present Rule 32 (gee, that's popular this week). After reading thru the package, he put it down, and essentially said "that's the company's line, but we don't need that crap up here." Obviously not, because he was later accused of harassing and eventually firing a L4 simply for being Puerto Rican. Of course, nothing came of it. M&E protected their own good ol' boy network...

So, perhaps that's why you have such problems with the lack of leadership at TUL. It's also why you see consultants coming in to make all the radical decisions, regardless if they work or not. Nobody else is willing to face the prospect of being the sacrificial lamb at the Altar of the Wrench. It's easier to blame the consultants.