The Right Thing To Do.

[Strake]

The post below was found here. The blue script was written by the moderator (not to be confused with Bob O.).

Name: The Right Thing to do.
Email:
Employer: NWA
Station: MSP
Date: Friday October 08, 2004
Time: 09:07:48 PM

Comments
For God's sake people, for your families sake, you must stop AMFA. You must see through them before we're all ruined. AMFA GIVES AWAY JOBS. AMFA NEGOTIATES FARM OUT LANGUAGE THAT ALLOWS FARM OUTS! What in God's name else do you need to know? Help yourselves and STOP AMFA now! Jim Atkinson MSP President is so brainwashed that he complains in the press about Farm Outs, yet it was his Union that allowed them! Ask Atkinson if NWA is over the limit that AMFA allows them to farm out! The answer will be no. So what's he complaining about? Please ask any AMFA rep. if NWA is over the cap yet. If they say yes ask them what they're doing about it. It's not rocked science, just AMFA misdirection. Don't leave without getting some satisfaction in their answer. Demand an answer....."Is NWA over the Cap?" If not, then what is AMFA complaining about? If they are then what is AMFA doing about it? It's just that simple.

The simple truth is like it or not, there is no limit on how much NWA can subcontract, there is only a penalty for anything subcontracted over the 38%. Our current subcontracting language is completely based on “total labor dollarsâ€. Assuming that subcontracting facilities can perform maintenance at half the cost of U.S. major airlines, NWA is allowed to subcontract 76% of our work and stay within the contractual limit of 38%, of the total labor dollars spent on Outside Vendor Labor plus in-house Labor. In addition, article 2(F)3,c, gives NWA numerous exceptions to the 38% subcontracting limit that “…shall not apply…â€.

If NWA is subcontracting more than 38% of the total labor dollars, not including the exceptions, there
would be a violation of article 2(F)3,d and I believe that AMFA would file a grievance.

“If the Company exceeds subcontracting limits, the Company will compensate the Association 100 percent of the dollar amount of the excedent.â€

In my opinion, NWA would present the facts to an arbitrator before paying any penalty. NWA would argue that the listed exceptions are not all-inclusive and therefore, would have the right to add additional exceptions. The statement “includes the following†located in Paragraph(F)3,c,1 will be at the center of attention. An arbitrator will decide if “includes the following†is an all-inclusive list of exceptions or not.

If AMFA was successful (they're record speaks for its self) and the arbitrator rules in our their, who wins? The monetary settlement does not go to the members that are laid off, it does not return the members back to work. The monetary settlement goes to the AMFA National (per national policy). So, who really wins? According to our national policy, the only real winners are the AMFA National.

In the end the only way to know for sure is to obtain the LM-10 forms from the Department of Labor, for those years AMFA has represented the Mechanics and related.

 

[scorpion]

The post below was found here. The blue script was written by the moderator (not to be confused with Bob O.).

Name: The Right Thing to do.
Email:
Employer: NWA
Station: MSP
Date: Friday October 08, 2004
Time: 09:07:48 PM

Comments
For God's sake people, for your families sake, you must stop AMFA. You must see through them before we're all ruined. AMFA GIVES AWAY JOBS. AMFA NEGOTIATES FARM OUT LANGUAGE THAT ALLOWS FARM OUTS! What in God's name else do you need to know? Help yourselves and STOP AMFA now! Jim Atkinson MSP President is so brainwashed that he complains in the press about Farm Outs, yet it was his Union that allowed them! Ask Atkinson if NWA is over the limit that AMFA allows them to farm out! The answer will be no. So what's he complaining about? Please ask any AMFA rep. if NWA is over the cap yet. If they say yes ask them what they're doing about it. It's not rocked science, just AMFA misdirection. Don't leave without getting some satisfaction in their answer. Demand an answer....."Is NWA over the Cap?" If not, then what is AMFA complaining about? If they are then what is AMFA doing about it? It's just that simple.

The simple truth is like it or not, there is no limit on how much NWA can subcontract, there is only a penalty for anything subcontracted over the 38%. Our current subcontracting language is completely based on “total labor dollarsâ€. Assuming that subcontracting facilities can perform maintenance at half the cost of U.S. major airlines, NWA is allowed to subcontract 76% of our work and stay within the contractual limit of 38%, of the total labor dollars spent on Outside Vendor Labor plus in-house Labor. In addition, article 2(F)3,c, gives NWA numerous exceptions to the 38% subcontracting limit that “…shall not apply…â€.

If NWA is subcontracting more than 38% of the total labor dollars, not including the exceptions, there
would be a violation of article 2(F)3,d and I believe that AMFA would file a grievance.

“If the Company exceeds subcontracting limits, the Company will compensate the Association 100 percent of the dollar amount of the excedent.â€

In my opinion, NWA would present the facts to an arbitrator before paying any penalty. NWA would argue that the listed exceptions are not all-inclusive and therefore, would have the right to add additional exceptions. The statement “includes the following†located in Paragraph(F)3,c,1 will be at the center of attention. An arbitrator will decide if “includes the following†is an all-inclusive list of exceptions or not.

If AMFA was successful (they're record speaks for its self) and the arbitrator rules in our their, who wins? The monetary settlement does not go to the members that are laid off, it does not return the members back to work. The monetary settlement goes to the AMFA National (per national policy). So, who really wins? According to our national policy, the only real winners are the AMFA National.

In the end the only way to know for sure is to obtain the LM-10 forms from the Department of Labor, for those years AMFA has represented the Mechanics and related.

[post="189397"][/post]​

Dude,,,,,,, get a twu card drive up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nightwatch]

That line is getting old, any new material? Facts are facts..amfa is losing more jobs than Bush!

 

[High Speed Steel]

I have heard the amfa is again in the process of soliciting for "misrepresentation" of the membership at AA. To date, I hear the responses have been rather bleak, to the signing of the amfa card's mailed to the membership at AA. How much of the amfa represented members dues money at SW, NW, UA, and etc. is the amfa national allowed to spend for this failed attempt..??? Who has the authority to say enough is enough..? I was under the "impression" that the membership controlled the amfa national.

Apparently this impression is a "sham"

--------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Decision 2004]

I have heard the amfa is again in the process of soliciting for "misrepresentation" of the membership at AA. To date, I hear the responses have been rather bleak, to the signing of the amfa card's mailed to the membership at AA. How much of the amfa represented members dues money at SW, NW, UA, and etc. is the amfa national allowed to spend for this failed attempt..??? Who has the authority to say enough is enough..? I was under the "impression" that the membership controlled the amfa national.

Apparently this impression is a "sham"

--------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="189545"][/post]​

You dont know chit, and your hearing is not as accurate as the facts.

I hear Jim Little likes concessions. I hear Randy McDonald is still in charge of Local 514. I hear AA will file BK by next March. I hear CIO is an expert at hot fueling chipper shredders. I hear Carmine is a TWU lover. I hear you are more afraid of AMFA that God. I have heard you sucked ass and got rid of a Crew Chief. I heard you are a gAyFL-CIO Lover. I hear your co-working machinist are signing card as a direct result of your activities.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

I have heard the amfa is again in the process of soliciting for "misrepresentation" of the membership at AA. To date, I hear the responses have been rather bleak, to the signing of the amfa card's mailed to the membership at AA. How much of the amfa represented members dues money at SW, NW, UA, and etc. is the amfa national allowed to spend for this failed attempt..??? Who has the authority to say enough is enough..? I was under the "impression" that the membership controlled the amfa national.

Just wondering who paid the 2 million dollar failure at Delta for the twu? Did Delta help pay for this and their employees knew better than to vote for the twu?





The AMFA membership has more control of their destiny than any member of the twu will ever have.

 

[Decision 2004]

Time for Change,

These guys do not hear, nor want to know about the TWU failures.

They simply will NOT hold their own Union to the same standards they wish to hold AMFA.

What the TWU does or doesn't do, is irrevelant to these worshippers of the Bus Shrine.

They really cannot even tell you why they support the TWU, they just simply hate and fear AMFA.

The TWU has ran a smear and scare campaign to justify Industry Leading Concessions, and to cover-up the "without further ratification" legal arguements in New York, in which a Federal Jusge ruled that under the TWU Constitution, the members are NOT required to be given a vote on amendments or changes to the collective bargaining agreement.

DO these stooges see the facts? NO
They are abunch of fear mongering OKIE inbreds that cannot hold a solid debate because their I.Q. Level falls two fish scales shy of a minnow. Even though they are full of fear, they believe that they will stand and fight against the company someday, somewhere, somehow. Yep, they will be fighting with the Zell Miller "Spit Balls", I suppose.

 

[Checking it Out]

So you think we all should be outsourced and now are (Amfadave quote) "Okie Inbreds?" What a way to get cards signed! You are still the best anti-Amfa organizer! Keep sending the literature out with no stamps! Works wonders!

Have a Great TWU Day!!!!!!

 

[High Speed Steel]

You dont know chit, and your hearing is not as accurate as the facts.

I hear Jim Little likes concessions. I hear Randy McDonald is still in charge of Local 514. I hear AA will file BK by next March. I hear CIO is an expert at hot fueling chipper shredders. I hear Carmine is a TWU lover. I hear you are more afraid of AMFA that God. I have heard you sucked ass and got rid of a Crew Chief. I heard you are a gAyFL-CIO Lover. I hear your co-working machinist are signing card as a direct result of your activities.

[post="189577"][/post]​

Machinists signing cards..? You keep telling yourself that decision

You're a real hero decision 2004

----------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Bob Owens]

Why is not signing a card "the right thing to do"(another TWU slogan borrowed from AA management by the way)?

All that signing a card can do is result in an election.

Are elections bad things?

Should we do away with all elections except for those at the lowest levels?

Is Democracy a bad thing?

Well apparently to those who control and support the TWU the answer to those questions is yes. The TWU sees democracy, and the accountability it provides as a bad thing. Thats because the TWU International has decided that gaining more dues paying members is more important than gaining wages and benifits. The International has decided to sacrifice wages and benifits to increase dues revenue. The TWU International, who give themselves raises while cutting our pay and benifits does not want us interfereing in their plans. And from where the TWU International is sitting their plan is working.

According to CIO the TWU has increased membership by over 35000, although figures posted by the TWU to the DOL do not reflect this. But for arguements sake lets allow CIO the benifit of the doubt. Lets say the TWU continues to grow.

The IAM reported that since their last Convention they have lost 25% of their membership.

Which union got more of those members than anyone else?

The TWU.

The IAM also lost members to the AMFA. However there is one critical difference. In the case of IAM members lost to the TWU none of those members chose the TWU as their bargaining unit. They had no choice, membership was required for employment. Their new employers had put their old employers out of business, and they did so with the TWUs low labor costs. However in the case of IAM members lost to AMFA it was the members that chose to leave through a vote.

Which way is better, membership choice, as in the case of IAM members who went to AMFA, or compulsory membership without choice, as in the case of IAM members who became TWU members?

Now we see TWU supporters saying that not signing a card is "the right thing to do". Why? Why not put the TWU to the test? We do it to our politicians, even the President. We even do it to our local school boards. The fact is that democracy forces leaders to act in the interests of those they represent, or else they will be replaced. What is wrong with that?

The last time the TWU faced an election was in 1946. This was just after WWII where the incumbant union had agreed to four years of pay freezes during the war.

The TWU claimed that such concessions were unacceptable. The TWU claimed that the workers should be given the opportunity to vote for who represents them. The workers at AA agreed and voted the TWU in.

That was 58 years ago.

Now after 20 years of concessions that pales to what was done during WWII many workers at AA feel that the TWU's performance is unacceptable, with the recent 25% cut in compensation, on top of twenty years of other concessions, as the final straw.

This 20 year period of concessions by the members coincided with rapid growth of the TWU. The TWU fueled growth of the TWU by lowering the standard of living of Airline workers.


As members we can not choose those who lead the TWU. International positions are filled by either appointment or at the Conventions, where the International determines who the delegation wants wants. For a hint of how things work I'll cite Sonny Halls response to the delegation when it was unclear whether a motion had passed or failed;
" Well if you get up here (to the International level), then you can decide the day you get here."
{ from page 9 of the Report of Proceedings 21st Constitutional Convention of the TWU Oct 15 2001}

Clearly Sonny Hall and the International do not even believe that they should be accountable to even the Convention.

One question, as our nation is sacrificing thousands of lives in what we are being told is to bring Democracy to other parts of the world, why is supressing democracy being sold as "the right thing to do" here in America?

I'm sure that Saddam Hussain would be in complete agreement with Strake, CIO and HSS.

The question is are you?

 

[local 12 proud]

So you think we all should be outsourced and now are (Amfadave quote) "Okie Inbreds?" What a way to get cards signed! You are still the best anti-Amfa organizer! Keep sending the literature out with no stamps! Works wonders!

Have a Great TWU Day!!!!!!

[post="189635"][/post]​

no worse than being called an "amfa scab puke" and being brought up on charges for wearing a union shirt of your choice. BTW cio i think he was referring to the inept twu leadership or lack of that presides over local 514 as the "okie inbred's" well and of course the boot lickers who have a hidden agenda! does this hit close to home cio?

 

[High Speed Steel]

Why is not signing a card "the right thing to do"(another TWU slogan borrowed from AA management by the way)?

All that signing a card can do is result in an election.

Are elections bad things?

Should we do away with all elections except for those at the lowest levels?

Is Democracy a bad thing?

Well apparently to those who control and support the TWU the answer to those questions is yes. The TWU sees democracy, and the accountability it provides as a bad thing. Thats because the TWU International has decided that gaining more dues paying members is more important than gaining wages and benifits. The International has decided to sacrifice wages and benifits to increase dues revenue. The TWU International, who give themselves raises while cutting our pay and benifits does not want us interfereing in their plans. And from where the TWU International is sitting their plan is working.

According to CIO the TWU has increased membership by over 35000, although figures posted by the TWU to the DOL do not reflect this. But for arguements sake lets allow CIO the benifit of the doubt. Lets say the TWU continues to grow.

The IAM reported that since their last Convention they have lost 25% of their membership.

Which union got more of those members than anyone else?

The TWU.

The IAM also lost members to the AMFA. However there is one critical difference. In the case of IAM members lost to the TWU none of those members chose the TWU as their bargaining unit. They had no choice, membership was required for employment. Their new employers had put their old employers out of business, and they did so with the TWUs low labor costs. However in the case of IAM members lost to AMFA it was the members that chose to leave through a vote.

Which way is better, membership choice, as in the case of IAM members who went to AMFA, or compulsory membership without choice, as in the case of IAM members who became TWU members?

Now we see TWU supporters saying that not signing a card is "the right thing to do". Why? Why not put the TWU to the test? We do it to our politicians, even the President. We even do it to our local school boards. The fact is that democracy forces leaders to act in the interests of those they represent, or else they will be replaced. What is wrong with that?

The last time the TWU faced an election was in 1946. This was just after WWII where the incumbant union had agreed to four years of pay freezes during the war.

The TWU claimed that such concessions were unacceptable. The TWU claimed that the workers should be given the opportunity to vote for who represents them. The workers at AA agreed and voted the TWU in.

That was 58 years ago.

Now after 20 years of concessions that pales to what was done during WWII many workers at AA feel that the TWU's performance is unacceptable, with the recent 25% cut in compensation, on top of twenty years of other concessions, as the final straw.

This 20 year period of concessions by the members coincided with rapid growth of the TWU. The TWU fueled growth of the TWU by lowering the standard of living of Airline workers.
As members we can not choose those who lead the TWU. International positions are filled by either appointment or at the Conventions, where the International determines who the delegation wants wants. For a hint of how things work I'll cite Sonny Halls response to the delegation when it was unclear whether a motion had passed or failed;
" Well if you get up here (to the International level), then you can decide the day you get here."
{ from page 9 of the Report of Proceedings 21st Constitutional Convention of the TWU Oct 15 2001}

Clearly Sonny Hall and the International do not even believe that they should be accountable to even the Convention.

One question, as our nation is sacrificing thousands of lives in what we are being told is to bring Democracy to other parts of the world, why is supressing democracy being sold as "the right thing to do" here in America?

I'm sure that Saddam Hussain would be in complete agreement with Strake, CIO and HSS.

The question is are you?

[post="189661"][/post]​

You know Bob, I don't usually read your entire posts due to the lenght that you spew on your opinions. I'm sorry that you have lost money, just as I am sorry that I have lost money, but we are still employed and that says alot these days within our profession. I don't believe in your philosophy of eliminating job's so the select few can capitalize on their misfortunes.

As a scenario, how would you feel if you where to take your wife and kid's out to a nice dinner and someone came up and scooted one of your kid's out of their chair and began to eat their meal? I would suspect that you would be ready to kick this persons a$$ for doing such a thing... Right Bob? This is what I perceive of the amfa and the agenda you support...... :down:

As for those who choose not to sign an amfa card deny you nothing! They choose not to participate in your agenda Bob! Yet you consider this as an infringment upon your rights. There is nothing political about what you spew, they exorcised their democratic rights not to support your ideas......So deal with it Bob :angry:

---------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[High Speed Steel]

You know what Bob, you are a real piece of crap! I have read your babble again and have concluded that I'm sick and tired of your "hoity-toity" New York Bull$hitttt....!!!!! Who do you think you are anyway Bob...? Are you a self proclaimed leader of the free world...? You compare me to the likes of Saddam Hussain? Take a look in a mirror you elitist prick.... :angry:

As far as I am concerned you can take your A&P and """"Shove it up your fat money hungry A$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"""........!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

-----------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

 

[Buck]

You know what Bob, you are a real piece of crap! I have read your babble again and have concluded that I'm sick and tired of your "hoity-toity" New York Bull$hitttt....!!!!! Who do you think you are anyway Bob...? Are you a self proclaimed leader of the free world...? You compare me to the likes of Saddam Hussain? Take a look in a mirror you elitist prick.... :angry:

As far as I am concerned you can take your A&P and """"Shove it up your fat money hungry A$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"""........!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

-----------------------------------
amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!

[post="189770"][/post]​

As far as I am concerned you can take your A&P and """"Shove it up your fat money hungry A$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"""........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you took offense to the term Okie Inbred? You just alienated all of the A&P mechanics industry wide.

 

[cheetah]

hay slow speed,you crack me up(what an idiot!).