The View From A Scab Who Left!

[delldude]

Are you saying that if the same terms ( 53pct headcount cut/25.7 pct pay/take it or leave it, no negotiations of the terms ) were offered to the IAM at US, that the IAM would have accepted them...or should have accepted them?...or the membership would've gone along and voted yes to paring most of their own numbers?

I don't agree the "concessions are concessions" bent of your post, which I believe is disingenuous. What I mean is that you speak as though the "adapt or die" mantra takes a monolithic form or blueprint and that the "adapt" part takes the same form and same magnitude in all cases. No other carriers ( not exactly who's who of the white-hatters of the business world ) has demanded concessions of the magnitude that NWA has demanded of thier mechanics, nor made such a direct titanic frontal assault in eliminating their bargaining agent. Again, you cannot possibly believe you, or anyone else would react by "taking one for the team" and be a martyr for some brand of uber-capitalism, especially in this era of corporate malfeasance/greed.
I'd sure like to believe the latter part of your statement at face value, however I detected several overtones of what can be regarded as "restrained jubilation" ( Sorry for the Seinfeld rip-off ) as to their situation. I don't buy the "I support the troops/but not the war" argument as such a non-committal stance gives aid in comfort to the "enemy" all the same and makes one ask 'Who's side are you on?

[post="294304"][/post]​

53 pct/25% pay......sounds just like U......
they either join the party or sleep with the dinosaurs......
hoo-ray for my side!

 

[High Iron]

53 pct/25% pay......sounds just like U......
they either join the party or sleep with the dinosaurs......
hoo-ray for my side!

[post="294307"][/post]​

Unless of course joining the party is becoming a dinosaur...all the while enriching the ivory tower bumblers who've brought it about. So then you do take some morbid satisfaction in the position the NWA mechs are in, don't you. Duly noted. :down:

 

[Saturdaynite]

who also passed the FAA exams like every other swinging dick out there with an A&P.

[post="294251"][/post]​

It goes along with the old adage:

What do you call the guy who was last in his class at Medical School????

doctor.

😛h34r:

 

[sentrido]

What do you call the last guy to cross a picket line?

 

[JS]

We're not saying they are not good at what they do, but it's about principle. What would have happened if the NWA mechanics had accepted the offer the company offered. I'll tell you if you don't already know. 54% of YOUR workforce would have been laid off and the remaining mechanics would be making 25% less then when they started. On top of that, the company would to be able to outsource anything they wanted. I feel the decision for the Mechanics to strike the company has alot to do with protecting INDUSTRY jobs (that means every airline) as much as it has to do with saving jobs at NWA. So with the SCABS (you call them replacment workers) working on NWA aircraft while the mechanics are on strike is just bad for our craft. It tells ANY company that they can pretty much do anything to the mechanics because there will always get low life SCABS to do struck work. I believe the mechanics on strike are trying to make our industry better. Fighting corporate greed, controling outsourced work, making the airline industry safer.

[post="294295"][/post]​

How do you make the industry better by forcing airlines to continue paying obsolete wages? The revenue needed to support legacy labor no longer exists!

I assume you work for Southwest? How do you explain your stance when your own employer outsources all of its heavy maintenance?

 

[High Iron]

How do you make the industry better by forcing airlines to continue paying obsolete wages? The revenue needed to support legacy labor no longer exists!

I assume you work for Southwest? How do you explain your stance when your own employer outsources all of its heavy maintenance?

[post="294468"][/post]​

Obsolete? That's a matter of opinion isn't it? Obsolete, or artificially obsolete? ( as in, let's do what's easiest, at least in the short term while maintaining status quo everywhere else...besides, it's oh-so-fashionable today....and we all know airline's penchant for reactive rather than proactive business decisions....not much thinking outside the box here ) Would that be executive or non-executive compensation? Of course the black-hatter apologists point out that since executives are relatively fewer in number, it's irrelevant. In real terms, why would a group faced with the loss of the majority of its members give a half a damn about "the survival of the company"? Martyrs to the altar of Adam Smith?

BTW, What does Southwest use that big facility in Dallas for? To park airplanes inside of case of nasty weather?

 

[High Iron]

How do you make the industry better by forcing airlines to continue paying obsolete wages? The revenue needed to support legacy labor no longer exists!

I assume you work for Southwest? How do you explain your stance when your own employer outsources all of its heavy maintenance?

[post="294468"][/post]​

Another question regarding obsolescence:

NWA mechanics got their contract in April of '01. It followed a somewhat bitter set of negotiations whereby they were told by the NWA LR guy: " there comes a time where you guys need to know your place in society" and yet AMFA's bargaining position was such that NWA had to sic the government on them because ( I'm paraphrasing, you can go look it up if you like...please do so ) a strike at NWA would be too disruptive to the transportation system and commerce in general. This tells us that the labor market demand put upward pressure on NWA's mechanics...and that NWA wanted no part of it . In the end, NWA settled with AMFA.

Question to you: Were NWA mechanics wages "obsolete" prior to 4/01? I'll bet you ( and NWA management ) would venture to say "no"...unquestiongly, though the "free market" said yes...much to the black-hatter's dismay. My point? It's all a matter of opinion, isn't it? Is the market truly free, whether by gov't intervention...or....by gov't looking the other way?

You may as well said that they who have the gold make the rules and leave it at that.

 

[Saturdaynite]

What do you call the last guy to cross a picket line?

[post="294432"][/post]​

Same as the first SCAB
😛h34r:

 

[JS]

Another question regarding obsolescence:

NWA mechanics got their contract in April of '01. It followed a somewhat bitter set of negotiations whereby they were told by the NWA LR guy: " there comes a time where you guys need to know your place in society" and yet AMFA's bargaining position was such that NWA had to sic the government on them because ( I'm paraphrasing, you can go look it up if you like...please do so ) a strike at NWA would be too disruptive to the transportation system and commerce in general. This tells us that the labor market demand put upward pressure on NWA's mechanics...and that NWA wanted no part of it . In the end, NWA settled with AMFA.

Question to you: Were NWA mechanics wages "obsolete" prior to 4/01? I'll bet you ( and NWA management ) would venture to say "no"...unquestiongly, though the "free market" said yes...much to the black-hatter's dismay. My point? It's all a matter of opinion, isn't it? Is the market truly free, whether by gov't intervention...or....by gov't looking the other way?

You may as well said that they who have the gold make the rules and leave it at that.

[post="294475"][/post]​

The industry has changed, for the worse, and permanently, since April 2001. If you can't recognize that, there's no hope.

 

[delldude]

Unless of course joining the party is becoming a dinosaur...all the while enriching the ivory tower bumblers who've brought it about. So then you do take some morbid satisfaction in the position the NWA mechs are in, don't you. Duly noted. :down:

[post="294310"][/post]​

i think amfa should have seen the writing on the wall and came to the realization of accepting what to some are unacceptable losses.the other unions on the property are already heading that way.like i said before,some moot labor action statement soon to be forgotten.
nwa claims they planned this out some 18 months ago...looks like they caught 'ol delle with his pants down to me. i feel sorry for the people he is leading down the path.
delle saved nwa a whole bunch of hassle.
he got them fewer workers at reduced wages and benefits,got whatever they need vendored out...and to boot he was offered the chance to negotiate.now looks like all or nothing to me.
how'd that guy put it?? the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
live long and prosper?? 😉

 

[High Iron]

The industry has changed, for the worse, and permanently, since April 2001. If you can't recognize that, there's no hope.

[post="294508"][/post]​

Glib. Were their wages obsolete before 4/01? I'll bet you think no. Not all has changed however; Managements can be as hidebound as ever. What has changed was reflexive reliance on concessions as a business plan.

Seems from your tone that there's no hope whether one "recognizes" it or not.

 

[High Iron]

i think amfa should have seen the writing on the wall and came to the realization of accepting what to some are unacceptable losses.the other unions on the property are already heading that way.like i said before,some moot labor action statement soon to be forgotten.
nwa claims they planned this out some 18 months ago...looks like they caught 'ol delle with his pants down to me. i feel sorry for the people he is leading down the path.
delle saved nwa a whole bunch of hassle.
he got them fewer workers at reduced wages and benefits,got whatever they need vendored out...and to boot he was offered the chance to negotiate.now looks like all or nothing to me.
how'd that guy put it?? the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
live long and prosper?? 😉

[post="294540"][/post]​

OK, we've already established you're getting your jollies out AMFA's ( and their memberships ) position. I won't expound in deference to decorum.

So the question is ( for the 3rd or 4th time ) then: ( and with more clarity )

If these exact terms were offered to you, would you vote for it?

No? Then why the second-guessing?

Yes? That would make you a martyr or very cushily insulated with little regard for solidarity.

BTW, the terms NWA's mechs are faced with would indicate "the needs of a few outweigh the needs of many".

 

[High Iron]

The industry has changed, for the worse, and permanently, since April 2001. If you can't recognize that, there's no hope.

[post="294508"][/post]​

Backing up a bit, and I don't want to steal WNJetfixer's thunder; What does WN have the A/C maint facility in Dallas for? Ask around............

 

[delldude]

OK, we've already established you're getting your jollies out AMFA's ( and their memberships ) position. I won't expound in deference to decorum.

So the question is ( for the 3rd or 4th time ) then: ( and with more clarity )

If these exact terms were offered to you, would you vote for it?

No? Then why the second-guessing?

Yes? That would make you a martyr or very cushily insulated with little regard for solidarity.

BTW, the terms NWA's mechs are faced with would indicate "the needs of a few outweigh the needs of many".

[post="294575"][/post]​

i'm sorry to have to drag you down to my level of mediocrity but again....
i was offered these similar terms and yes i voted against it....but i had a chance to choose leroy.... did the amfa crowd??
and in my having a chance to decide my own fate...others voted to accept it..not my leaders...i had a chance to choose and i bet you now most would do the same at amfa....

 

[High Iron]

i'm sorry to have to drag you down to my level of mediocrity but again....
i was offered these similar terms and yes i voted against it....but i had a chance to choose leroy.... did the amfa crowd??
and in my having a chance to decide my own fate...others voted to accept it..not my leaders...i had a chance to choose and i bet you now most would do the same at amfa....

[post="294581"][/post]​

That's no answer, and here's why:

You were most certainly not faced with an offer of similar terms, let alone those exact terms. I know it...and you know it. And, in the case of both US and NWA, they were/are "take it or leave it" situations...so there's no cherry picking or line-item vetoes.

So, if you were faced with having to vote yourself out of a job ( or throw most[i/] of your co-workers under the bus ) would you vote for it?

BTW, there sure is a large large difference in the tone of your posts ( in the employee/management perspective ) from your posts on the NWA forum recently, and the US forum both recently and going years back. What's up wit' dat? B)