The View From A Scab Who Left!

[WNJETFIXER]

How do you make the industry better by forcing airlines to continue paying obsolete wages? The revenue needed to support legacy labor no longer exists!

I assume you work for Southwest? How do you explain your stance when your own employer outsources all of its heavy maintenance?

[post="294468"][/post]​

That's right, I do work for Southwest. And trust me, I am a big avocate of lowering , if not banning, outsourced work in the airline industry. As for the revenue needed to support legacy labor, don't get me started. So your telling me that money exists to pay these corporate maggots millions a year?? What do they do except run airlines into the ground. Dougie is no different then Lorenzo and he should be delt with the same. :huh:

 

[delldude]

That's no answer, and here's why:

You were most certainly not faced with an offer of similar terms, let alone those exact terms. I know it...and you know it. And, in the case of both US and NWA, they were/are "take it or leave it" situations...so there's no cherry picking or line-item vetoes.

So, if you were faced with having to vote yourself out of a job ( or throw most[i/] of your co-workers under the bus ) would you vote for it?

BTW, there sure is a large large difference in the tone of your posts ( in the employee/management perspective ) from your posts on the NWA forum recently, and the US forum both recently and going years back. What's up wit' dat? B)

[post="294588"][/post]​

you telling me nwa wasn't the same?? if not then why did delle walk??
talk is cheap in union circles but when you look the little women and kids in the eye,most opt for ME....i've seen it before and you'll see it again....
always have been a union member....some 29 years in various unions.....not pro nwa managemnet like you intimate but i see a finely detailed plan here unfolding against amfa and must say i somewhat respect nwa for their tenacity....and must hold amfa accountable for their stupidity(leadership)....i still say in this time in aviation staunch unionist tactics from the days of regulation don't sem to work very well these days.....time will tell whether anyones particular position bears out.

 

[High Iron]

I see. However:

So, if you were faced with having to vote yourself out of a job ( or throw most of your co-workers under the bus ) would you vote for it?

 

[delldude]

OK, I see. However:

So, if you were faced with having to vote yourself out of a job ( or throw most of your co-workers under the bus ) would you vote for it?

[post="294600"][/post]​

well well well...if you must know the truth.....here it is full monty style....
i voted to reject the proposal presented to usair this past go around and when it passed i accepted the voluntary severance package,applied for my early pension,packed my tools and went in a different direction so some junior person wouldn't be thrown under the bus.
you capeesh now skyboy? 😉

 

[High Iron]

well well well...if you must know the truth.....here it is full monty style....
i voted to reject the proposal presented to usair this past go around and when it passed i accepted the voluntary severance package,applied for my early pension,packed my tools and went in a different direction so some junior person wouldn't be thrown under the bus.
you capeesh now skyboy? 😉

[post="294603"][/post]​

Well thanks for finally answering after a half-dozen go-rounds.

Very sporting of you ( I mean it ) to take the voluntary separation to spare junior members the axe, and that was it's ostensive purpose.

You voted no against a less onerous terms than the one NWA mechs were offered, and yet fault them for doing the same? <_<

I would think that if you have no insulated yourself from the industry you would at least have a neutral, if not non-existant, viewpoint. Certainly not throwing shivs at them.

 

[delldude]

[post="294608"][/post]​

You voted no against a less onerous terms than the one NWA mechs were offered, and yet fault them for doing the same?

wait a minute...do you know what its like to have a meaningful raise??
i don't believe we saw one since sometime around the early to mid nineties....everything since the 92 contract has been concessionary.....
you guys went to $40....we got crap.....and its gone in reverse since then...so do not attempt to make out like you guys are getting the shaft......its still 3 feet in at U.
and U has made tremendous personell sacrifice over the years so here too i think you can't totally compare.
my point was most likely due to no labor stance at U ,the industry is now self leveling....NWA will not be a stand out ,wage and benefitwise by any means...its a simple matter of the cost to compete against the rest of the losers.
you can call me what you wish but i still fault amfa for not approaching the realities of todays industry,and the members will pay the price.
i can't say i'm in love with IAM either but at least i feel thay saw the realities of the industry and did what they could even though they knew there would be job loss.
hell the industry hasn't seen heydays since the early 80's....... 😉
you have a nice day.... 😉

 

[High Iron]

wait a minute...do you know what its like to have a meaningful raise??
i don't believe we saw one since sometime around the early to mid nineties....everything since the 92 contract has been concessionary.....
you guys went to $40....we got crap.....and its gone in reverse since then...so do not attempt to make out like you guys are getting the shaft......its still 3 feet in at U.
and U has made tremendous personell sacrifice over the years so here too i think you can't totally compare.
my point was most likely due to no labor stance at U ,the industry is now self leveling....NWA will not be a stand out ,wage and benefitwise by any means...its a simple matter of the cost to compete against the rest of the losers.
you can call me what you wish but i still fault amfa for not approaching the realities of todays industry,and the members will pay the price.
i can't say i'm in love with IAM either but at least i feel thay saw the realities of the industry and did what they could even though they knew there would be job loss.
hell the industry hasn't seen heydays since the early 80's....... 😉
you have a nice day.... 😉

[post="294638"][/post]​

First off; Who the h*ll are the "you guys" that you refer to? Do you know where I work...or even what I do at where I work?

Your rant confirms my suspicion: You employ situational ethics rooted in a petty and visceral disdain for a rival union, and take satisfaction on other's misfortune as some sort of perverted revenge.

Don't concern yourself with what kind of day I'm having ( it's not a bad one BTW, other than being droopy humid ) as now seeing your character, I've got nothing more to say to you.

 

[delldude]

First off; Who the h*ll are the "you guys" that you refer to? Do you know where I work...or even what I do at where I work?

Your rant confirms my suspicion: You employ situational ethics rooted in a petty and visceral disdain for a rival union, and take satisfaction on other's misfortune as some sort of perverted revenge.

Don't concern yourself with what kind of day I'm having ( it's not a bad one BTW, other than being droopy humid ) as now seeing your character, I've got nothing more to say to you.

[post="294650"][/post]​

you're the one who compares nwa's plight thats sooo hard to bear....we've been there dude...
guess you told me freud...........

 

[markkus757]

For all you debating this right now, the industry downturn was starting a few years before 9/11. Two things have brought us to where we are right now. The first was that enormous elephant of a contract that the UA pilots signed. The second was obviously 9/11. We were going down this road, it just happened much quicker.

 

[TWU informer]

For all you debating this right now, the industry downturn was starting a few years before 9/11.  Two things have brought us to where we are right now.  The first was that enormous elephant of a contract that the UA pilots signed.  The second was obviously 9/11.  We were going down this road, it just happened much quicker.

[post="294738"][/post]​

There are many more factors my friend.

Airline Management/Union's refusal to downsize the industry and reduce capacity. The "save jobs" mental block lead to reduced ticket price wars in an over capacity game of chicken.

Bankruptcy Laws that have floated mis-managed airlines like turds in a septic tank.

Government bailout funds that also assisted in the turd floating experiement.

IT IS NOT THE WORKING MAN'S FAULT!
ANYONE CLAIMING SO IS A FOOL ON FLOATING TURD!

Could be that the Union Dues Collecting Leadership/Business Men played a part right along with mis-management, but the rank-and-file worker has simply been along for the ride at the mercy of the wealthy dictators.

 

[E-TRONS]

i'm sorry to have to drag you down to my level of mediocrity but again....
i was offered these similar terms and yes i voted against it....but i had a chance to choose leroy.... did the amfa crowd??
and in my having a chance to decide my own fate...others voted to accept it..not my leaders...i had a chance to choose and i bet you now most would do the same at amfa....

[post="294581"][/post]​

Dude,

I think NWA AMFA mechs voted 92% to strike the carrier. So they actually did have the chance.

We tried to stand our ground at UAIR with a NO vote and we got a RE-VOTE. So much for the right to choose :down:

 

[NWA_NJ]

There are many more factors my friend.

Airline Management/Union's refusal to downsize the industry and reduce capacity. The "save jobs" mental block lead to reduced ticket price wars in an over capacity game of chicken.

Bankruptcy Laws that have floated mis-managed airlines like turds in a septic tank.

Government bailout funds that also assisted in the turd floating experiement.

IT IS NOT THE WORKING MAN'S FAULT!
ANYONE CLAIMING SO IS A FOOL ON FLOATING TURD!

Could be that the Union Dues Collecting Leadership/Business Men played a part right along with mis-management, but the rank-and-file worker has simply been along for the ride at the mercy of the wealthy dictators.

[post="294745"][/post]​

It's always someone else's fault. That's an easy out. It's not me, it's not me! Now, this is an honest question: When there was a downturn in the airline business after 9/11 or the SARS outbreak, did the union go to NWA and say "What can we do?" or "How can we make the best of this situation?" Did the union members go to union leadership to suggest that they do more or do something to help the airline? What about when the LCC's came into the market, as a result of the high fixed costs the legacy airlines have? Did you say "What can we do to help keep our great airline alive?"

Maybe you did. But if you didn't, you shouldn't be so angry. You've heard for years now about LCCs taking market share away and hurting the legacy carriers. The answer I always hear is just raise fares. Well, that doesn't work anymore. There are too many options now. And if fares stay high, a new carrier will swoop in and lower the them. When I first started flying with any regularity 67 years ago, tickets from EWR to MSP were $1200 because of no Sat Night Stay over. Now it costs, what, $250? Maybe $500 last minute. You think the airline is happy with that? That certainly cuts into revenue.

When times are good, everything is great. As soon as things get tough, the working man just blames the EVIL MAN. It's always a conspiracy. My point is that this was a long time coming. It sucks... No one likes to make less or to lose their job. But there has been a lot of warning that this day was going to come. Instead of riding it out and having all of this contempt for company management where you wish death to your employer (and thousands of other employees), why not take matters into your own hand and plan for the future... and maybe create an even better life for yourself and your family. Or, if not better, maybe one that is comparable and one that has less stress, where you don't have to worry about losing a job.

I don't work for a union (I guess that's pretty obvious), but I'm still affected by layoffs. I'm still a working man. I've had lots of friends get laid off. And I think all of them are happier now. I know I could get laid off. There is no guarantee against it. But if it happens, I adapt and move on. (If I do get laid off, I certainly won't get 6 months severance). You can too... you guys are highly skilled technicians that have other options. If you plan ahead, it's a hell of a lot easier. Much easier to get a job you want before you have to compete with 2000 other highly trained technicians.

It sucks but that's the way it is. You can fight until the end, but bottom line is you are going to lose. There is no win here. You don't win if NWA fails. The only way you win is if you take control of your life, instead of just following the direction of some union boss that probably cares for you about as much as company management does, and make a positive change for yourself.

 

[delldude]

Dude,

I think NWA AMFA mechs voted 92% to strike the carrier. So they actually did have the chance.

We tried to stand our ground at UAIR with a NO vote and we got a RE-VOTE. So much for the right to choose :down:

[post="294775"][/post]​

maybe all got caught up in the moment...its easy to do .we voted to strike then people had stress when it was approved and called the union to try and change their votes..

Head of Northwest mechanics union rallies workers
ATA smartbrief:
The director of the mechanics union at Northwest Airlines visited the picket lines Monday with hopes of boosting the strikers' spirits. Other unionized employees are not honoring the picket line, and some mechanics say the union rushed into the strike. No new talks are scheduled with the airline.

why do you think we only walked a week in '92......they were on the verge of caving at weeks end.....big time and the union new it too.

 

[NWA/AMT]

maybe all got caught up in the moment...its easy to do .we voted to strike then people had stress when it was approved and called the union to try and change their votes..

[post="294805"][/post]​

Far from it. Everyone realized the full implications of the NWA proposals:

To date they have cut 47% of the maintenance workforce.

They now demand a further 53%, or half of those who are left, bringing the total to 75% overall.

For the remaining 25% of the original workforce, they wish to remove most of the contract language that offers any job security, replacing it with a watered-down "job protection" letter that contains more 'force majeur' exceptions than job protections.

The "job protection" offer from NWA covers only people, not positions. In other words, through attrition NWA mechanics would be eliminated. They have clearly stated that recall of furloughed mechanics is not going to happen as people retire or quit.

You say you took voluntary severance at U? No such thing was offered at NWA.

Still think the situations at NWA and U are the same? Like I said before, we had our contract vote in the strike vote and we overwhelmingly rejected it.

 

[Bob Owens]

The industry has changed, for the worse, and permanently, since April 2001. If you can't recognize that, there's no hope.

[post="294508"][/post]​

"The Industry has changed permanently"

They said that in the early 80s. It not only rebounded but expanded. Several Legacies went on to earn "Record Profits". Profits that dwarfed anything the airlines saw during the CAB era.

They said it again in the early 90s.In fact in the early 90s the airlines industry claimed that they lost more money in one year than they made in their entire previous existance.

However from 1995 they had record setting profits year after year for the rest of the decade.

If the industry is in a permanent decline then why are institutions buying them up? Look at the percentage of institutional ownership in the airline industry and compare it to other industries. Are those Institutions run by morons or do they know something we dont?