Time to decertify ALPA?

[Groucho]

Well that is an interesting barometer that omits the criteria of ALPA merger policy.

A new site is up and running,
[email protected]

This site is by invitation only to current US Airways pilots. Please include your DOH, position on the new list and current base and seat in addition to name and email etc.

We will be discussing an representation authorization and request for employee election to the NMB to replace ALPA.

Thanks

 

[nycbusdriver]

A new site is up and running,
[email protected]

Not at 8:33 pm it wasn't.

 

[Rico]

No, it means 19 years of service amounts to a hill of beans anywhere else. Where did you expect Collelo to go? To come in as a captain when he probably had no chance of ever getting recalled? Look at it this way: East did a hell of a lot better with the ALPA policy than what TWA did with the APA. Both TWA and East were within hours of liquidation. The results could have been much "worse" for the East. They should be thanking ALPA.

However you try to paint this, it is a MAJOR windfall for the AWA pilot group.

NOT one AWA pilot lost a damn THING.

They gained Widebodies, they gained attrition levels they would not have seen otherwise, they kept their relative position, and had 1700+ placed behind their most junior pilot, who now has the same relative positon as a 19 YEAR Pilot.

The ALPA merger policy was the heart and soul of what was wrong with this award, and is why ALPA is at blame.

Collelo WAS recalled, HE WAS flying for US Airways both in 05, and now...!!! But it is the folly of ALPA to pretend that he was not in active service in 05...

That's BS, and that's why ALPA is being sued, and why it needs to be decertified while we still have the numbers to do so.



Enjoy your windfall, "pal".

 

[flynomore]

AAA pilots need to stand down the JNC now!

 

[Bud8EE]

AAA pilots need to stand down the JNC now!

If they have any sense, that is what they will do.

 

[ClueByFour]

Well that is an interesting barometer that omits the criteria of ALPA merger policy.

Huh?

Absent the East pilots' view of a "windfall," it strikes me that it did what it was supposed to do.

Try this interesting situation for size.

A USAir pilot works for 14 years at USAir and then gets furloughed. He then gets hired onto the bottom of HP (still hopeful that one day he could work for one of the real majors, whatever that means) and works for 2 years at HP before the merger happens.

He is now on the merged seniority list twice. One based on his position on each prior list.

With a reasonable integration, where would you expect him to show up for each? You be the judge.

His two new numbers are over 1000 numbers different. His 2 years of service at HP got him placed above someone at USAir with 20 years of active service, who was over 700 numbers senior to him on thursday. After starting his career over, his seniority leapfrogged 700 of his previous co-workers.

Boy if everyone could start over after 14 years with that much karma. B) :blink: :unsure:
No. Of course not.

At the end of the day, the guy at HP had a better chance of moving up the list at a much greater clip than the East pilot. The east pilot barely knew if the company would be in business the following month.

The only thing the East pilot had was the widebodies (that the west guy lacked). Upward mobility was stagnant, right?

Your man with 20 years at east and two at west would have made Captain at west sooner, right?

It's not the HP's guy's fault that they had some upward mobility on the list. It's also not the East guy's fault that the company was a permanent basket case. But to suggest that an injustice was done seems to ignore the reality of the situation at the time of the merger.

 

[SoldWholeSale]

You're dreaming. UAL thinks this list is very fair. The problem for all of you is that you shot your mouths off with the UAL buyout just like you did with this buyout. You were totally divorced from reality then and you are totally divorced from reality now. Every UAL crewmember I've spoken to since this buyout was announced had nothing good to say about the East. They were 100% correct about how unrealistic East is/was. But we now know that the process works the way it's supposed to. If you acutally believe there is sympathy out there for you, then you best think again. Quit, try to shut it down, decertify...whatever. You're only 2700 pilots. You're easily replacable.

--Buyout? HP didn't have enough cash to go another 6 months without major changes, USAir while in Chapt. 11, had a huge amount of cash in the bank. The resulting stock swap allowed USAir to come out of BR, and HP the cash it needed to get some momentum agian. Heck, I remember when Mesa(who is larger than HP now) bailed HP out of Chapt. 11.....

In regard to UAL, you know as well as I do they have always treated HP as if they were much, much lower on the food chain. If you think they were pulling for ya, reality divorce court is again in session. I do agree that AAA ALPA is ignorant and corrupt. and haven't the good sense to keep their mouths shut even when their head is under water. However, the merged list is based on flawed information/misinformation which the AAA MEC has fabricated to save their own A$$ in a very, very large law suit. That same suspect information is the one thing which will be the fly in the ointment.

This list doesn't have to ever merge, as there has to be a ratified contract before that can happen, and while there were only 2700 pilots, there are well over 3100 now, and more returning every day, which allows for quite a lot of voting leverage. What would happen if upgrade based on LOS were put up as a resolution to be voted on? Even if only 50% of the AAA Captains voted yes, and all the FO's, it would pass by a large margin. Better to fix this mess now, than have it be a fur ball for years to come.

There will be changes to this list

SH

 

[aquagreen73s]

--Buyout? HP didn't have enough cash to go another 6 months without major changes, USAir while in Chapt. 11, had a huge amount of cash in the bank. The resulting stock swap allowed USAir to come out of BR, and HP the cash it needed to get some momentum agian. Heck, I remember when Mesa(who is larger than HP now) bailed HP out of Chapt. 11.....

In regard to UAL, you know as well as I do they have always treated HP as if they were much, much lower on the food chain. If you think they were pulling for ya, reality divorce court is again in session. I do agree that AAA ALPA is ignorant and corrupt. and haven't the good sense to keep their mouths shut even when their head is under water. However, the merged list is based on flawed information/misinformation which the AAA MEC has fabricated to save their own A$$ in a very, very large law suit. That same suspect information is the one thing which will be the fly in the ointment.

This list doesn't have to ever merge, as there has to be a ratified contract before that can happen, and while there were only 2700 pilots, there are well over 3100 now, and more returning every day, which allows for quite a lot of voting leverage. What would happen if upgrade based on LOS were put up as a resolution to be voted on? Even if only 50% of the AAA Captains voted yes, and all the FO's, it would pass by a large margin. Better to fix this mess now, than have it be a fur ball for years to come.

There will be changes to this list

SH

The problem with your resolution proposal is that it directly conflicts with an arbitrated settlement from which AAA is bound. If the NMB still has jurisdiction at that point, then it's an easy case for an injuction. If not the NMB, then the Federal District Court will have jurisdiction. Think about it: if you could get away with what you propose, then you would be undermining the administrative process enacted by Congress and delegated to the Executive Branch. Drug smugglers, the mafia, tax cheats - all of them are constantly looking for ways to evade the law. It never works. Finally, you'd be effectively using ALPA as an instrument to obstruct and circumvent an arbitrated settlement; ALPA national would be liable under an agency theory.

You're not the first to be miffed about Lady Justice's product, but I assure you that despite whatever antics you dream up, it's been tried before and has failed.
I suppose you could keep the operation separate for a while, but there raises an issue about single carrier status. I haven't studied that area of law, but it seems that the case could be easily made that AAA is not acting in good faith and is interfering with the functioning of a corporation. What it comes down to is this: we can do this the easy way and get on with life, or we can do it the hard way. But the law has spoken. Period.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

aquagreen737s.

ALPA will be decertified by the east pilots, that I can assure you. So, here's what's going to happen. That list? It's toast. The arbitrator and his UAL friend have destroyed any chance of unity between east and west. And, this ultimately could take the company with it. Parker and Kirby know this and (I can't believe I am going to say this) I feel real sorry for them because they are being put in an absolutely no-win situation.

So, it's up to you guys on the west to look at the reality long term. You gained a windfall - this you cannot deny. If you can't see that then let the cards fall where they may. If the senority can't be done fair and square the whole damn house of cards is coming down with it.

Later,
Eye

 

[CactusFlyr]

aquagreen737s.

ALPA will be decertified by the east pilots, that I can assure you. So, here's what's going to happen. That list? It's toast. The arbitrator and his UAL friend have destroyed any chance of unity between east and west. And, this ultimately could take the company with it. Parker and Kirby know this and (I can't believe I am going to say this) I feel real sorry for them because they are being put in an absolutely no-win situation.

So, it's up to you guys on the west to look at the reality long term. You gained a windfall - this you cannot deny. If you can't see that then let the cards fall where they may. If the senority can't be done fair and square the whole damn house of cards is coming down with it.

Later,
Eye

Fair and square, as in DOH/LOS??? Not merger policy and should not be any longer as there are many younger companies that are not "Legacy" carriers that will merge. Is it fair for them to be your furlough protection, I think not.

 

[AWA320]

Call your Reps know let them know you want out of ALPO Then call Captain Prater at ALPO National. This may be your last chance. Tell him what this arbitration means to you. His number is 703 689 2270. His extension number is 4010.

Yeah that's real smart decert, you see that way you no longer have a contract as ALPA is your agent and the contract is with them!!

No arbitrator or federal judge would ever touch this thing. They like the rest of the world would see this for just what it is, sour grapes.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

No one is talking about being an "employee at will." Decertifying ALPA does not mean that the group will be non-union. We will have a union, and the current contract is in full force until amended whether ALPA administers it or not.

Not true my friend, I suggest you do some research!!! ALPA is you bargining agent and the contract is between ALPA and USAirways. Decert and you have no contract, no contract and you guys may as well open up your butt cheeks..

AWA320

aquagreen737s.

ALPA will be decertified by the east pilots, that I can assure you. So, here's what's going to happen. That list? It's toast. The arbitrator and his UAL friend have destroyed any chance of unity between east and west. And, this ultimately could take the company with it. Parker and Kirby know this and (I can't believe I am going to say this) I feel real sorry for them because they are being put in an absolutely no-win situation.

So, it's up to you guys on the west to look at the reality long term. You gained a windfall - this you cannot deny. If you can't see that then let the cards fall where they may. If the senority can't be done fair and square the whole damn house of cards is coming down with it.

Later,
Eye

You are an absolute idiot!!!! I hope that you and your boys have side businesses to fall back on when you start your little game. The west played the game by the rules and now the game is over and you think that more time should be put back on the clock so you can play longer!! Naw go ahead we'll stay with what we have!!!

AWA320

The problem with your resolution proposal is that it directly conflicts with an arbitrated settlement from which AAA is bound. If the NMB still has jurisdiction at that point, then it's an easy case for an injuction. If not the NMB, then the Federal District Court will have jurisdiction. Think about it: if you could get away with what you propose, then you would be undermining the administrative process enacted by Congress and delegated to the Executive Branch. Drug smugglers, the mafia, tax cheats - all of them are constantly looking for ways to evade the law. It never works. Finally, you'd be effectively using ALPA as an instrument to obstruct and circumvent an arbitrated settlement; ALPA national would be liable under an agency theory.

You're not the first to be miffed about Lady Justice's product, but I assure you that despite whatever antics you dream up, it's been tried before and has failed.
I suppose you could keep the operation separate for a while, but there raises an issue about single carrier status. I haven't studied that area of law, but it seems that the case could be easily made that AAA is not acting in good faith and is interfering with the functioning of a corporation. What it comes down to is this: we can do this the easy way and get on with life, or we can do it the hard way. But the law has spoken. Period.

Excellent post, no additives needed.

AWA320

 

[SoldWholeSale]

The problem with your resolution proposal is that it directly conflicts with an arbitrated settlement from which AAA is bound. If the NMB still has jurisdiction at that point, then it's an easy case for an injuction. If not the NMB, then the Federal District Court will have jurisdiction. Think about it: if you could get away with what you propose, then you would be undermining the administrative process enacted by Congress and delegated to the Executive Branch. Drug smugglers, the mafia, tax cheats - all of them are constantly looking for ways to evade the law. It never works. Finally, you'd be effectively using ALPA as an instrument to obstruct and circumvent an arbitrated settlement; ALPA national would be liable under an agency theory.

You're not the first to be miffed about Lady Justice's product, but I assure you that despite whatever antics you dream up, it's been tried before and has failed.
I suppose you could keep the operation separate for a while, but there raises an issue about single carrier status. I haven't studied that area of law, but it seems that the case could be easily made that AAA is not acting in good faith and is interfering with the functioning of a corporation. What it comes down to is this: we can do this the easy way and get on with life, or we can do it the hard way. But the law has spoken. Period.

---Well then, the hard way it is.... AWA wouldn't be the first company to fall under the USAir wagon wheel of ruined companies. The law governs how the list goes together, not how the contract is governed there after. Just like the rights to recall, and the right to keep the guys around who can only pass every other checkride, the instrument which decides upgrade be it longevity or seniority is a contractual item. As long as any contractual items are voted on, there is no breach in DFR, or the RICO statutes you mentioned.

Change is on the way....

SH

 

[Phoenix]

aquagreen737s.

ALPA will be decertified by the east pilots, that I can assure you. So, here's what's going to happen. That list? It's toast. The arbitrator and his UAL friend have destroyed any chance of unity between east and west. And, this ultimately could take the company with it. Parker and Kirby know this and (I can't believe I am going to say this) I feel real sorry for them because they are being put in an absolutely no-win situation.

So, it's up to you guys on the west to look at the reality long term. You gained a windfall - this you cannot deny. If you can't see that then let the cards fall where they may. If the senority can't be done fair and square the whole damn house of cards is coming down with it.

Later,
Eye

The only reason Aqua is spouting off is that he wants his windfall and has SJS, and he is scaaaareed that he has to defend it.

He has some some great arguments and he has almost convinced me. B)

 

[john john]

Yeah that's real smart decert, you see that way you no longer have a contract as ALPA is your agent and the contract is with them!!

No arbitrator or federal judge would ever touch this thing. They like the rest of the world would see this for just what it is, sour grapes.

AWA320

UA and NW mechanics voted out IAM and voted in AMFA there contracts stay in place just the union changed. Can you explain how this developed with them and could not develop with ALPA and whom every.