Trouble Ahead

[wnbubbleboy]

Many of us are under contract and will show up for work. Shutting down is not an option. With that being said here's my opinion of what I saw at the recent BWI message to the field. Flight attendants you show up united at the BWI message to the field with red shirts on and stay in your seats while whe all stood for Collen and Jim. Which Jim I can understand since you are going through with the impasss/deadlock whatever. Staying in your seat for Collen though? She's the reason Southwest is people oriented and why we are different from brand X airlines. Also, after that people in you group happily hop skip and jump to get the gifts the company is handing out. Did you notice your group was the only on cheering? Do you see the how this looks to other work groups? There is some hypocracy of you actions. You have an ax to grind but accept prises regardless. I know you work hard, we all do. We all carry crosses to make this company successfull. You have to remember there are other work groups watching. After this all passes, and it will, remember many of us will be left with the impression of a spoiled kid crying because their piece of cake is smaller that their kid brothers.




Why should they not accept the prizes? And, REALISTICALLY, why should their piece of cake be smaller than the others?

TIA

Who do you think supplied those prizes? Maybe the same person that they may have a beef with. Your fight is backed by your resolve to stand against the company until the the contract issue is done. If you refuse to show respect to the leaders and accept their gifts what message does that send out?

On the other aspect of salary, get what you can get. However, complaining about how the company in public doesn't do you any good. What can we do for you? All I can say if at the end of negotiations your not happy and the company's not happy you've done ok.

This is not posted to be mean spirted, it's simply and observation from an employee in another work group.

 

[KCFlyer]

However, complaining about how the company in public doesn't do you any good. What can we do for you?

That's what I've been trying to say, but according to Thom McDaniel, this is what is called a "Strategic Bargaining Campaign". It's more important than negotiating. It's negotiating thru the media. Not that the media, or Joe Customer can do anything about it (short of boycotting your airline and causing a loss of income).

 

[orangeman]

Unless, they're going to get several thousand flight attendants trained and certified in time for a strike, that is going to get tough.

If I am correct, if not it's close, it takes about 4 weeks for a new F/A to be trained. So when an impasse is declared Southwest will mass hire and train these people. Remember there is a 30 day (approx 4 weeks) cooling off period. Now also take into account all those on probation and the percentage of those who will not walk and I see very small and short term disruption. I do how that something is settled before this happens but it is not looking good at this point. Also the one thing that bother me is the Unions refusel to send the compnaies "best" contract to the memeber and let them vote. The Union has nothing to lose. If it gets voted donw then they can tell the company "I told you so". If it gets voted in then good for the F/As. The power is in the numbers.

ww...didn't the rampers vote down the first TA that they were presented? I agree...go ahead and "tentatively agree" to the company's offer. If the numbers are behind the union, it would get voted down. At least then, the company would know that the offer wasn't acceptable to their employees, and not have to rely on a guy who is more interested in media attention than contract negotiations.

Alot of this has to do with "retro pay"! In the past, a NO vote on a TA'd agrrement has "reset" the clock as far as retro pay! Parker has used a NO vote in the past to renogotiate retro pay! Never again! If he can draw out the negotiations and not have to pay full retro, why not draw out negotiations as long as possible under the R.L.A? This is just one more aspect that the average "Joe" is not aware of! In addition, I make less per trip than a F/A at the same seniority made in 1986! I only require the same % raisee per year that my coworkers have received! Why should a F/A make< after 20% pay concessions, more than me at the same seniority? I don't receive Holiday pay, crew meals, paid training and I have to clean the plane between flights! I realize that this is part of my job description, but why should I be payed less?






..didn't the rampers vote down the first TA that they were presented? I agree...go ah


ead and "tentatively agree" to the company's offer. If the numbers are behind the union, it would get voted down. At least then, the company would know that the offer wasn't acceptable to their employees, and not have to rely on a guy who is more interested in media attention

 

[orangeman]

Unless, they're going to get several thousand flight attendants trained and certified in time for a strike, that is going to get tough.

If I am correct, if not it's close, it takes about 4 weeks for a new F/A to be trained. So when an impasse is declared Southwest will mass hire and train these people. Remember there is a 30 day (approx 4 weeks) cooling off period. Now also take into account all those on probation and the percentage of those who will not walk and I see very small and short term disruption. I do how that something is settled before this happens but it is not looking good at this point. Also the one thing that bother me is the Unions refusel to send the compnaies "best" contract to the memeber and let them vote. The Union has nothing to lose. If it gets voted donw then they can tell the company "I told you so". If it gets voted in then good for the F/As. The power is in the numbers.

ww...didn't the rampers vote down the first TA that they were presented? I agree...go ahead and "tentatively agree" to the company's offer. If the numbers are behind the union, it would get voted down. At least then, the company would know that the offer wasn't acceptable to their employees, and not have to rely on a guy who is more interested in media attention than contract negotiations.

Alot of this has to do with "retro pay"! In the past, a NO vote on a TA'd agrrement has "reset" the clock as far as retro pay! Parker has used a NO vote in the past to renogotiate retro pay! Never again! If he can draw out the negotiations and not have to pay full retro, why not draw out negotiations as long as possible under the R.L.A? This is just one more aspect that the average "Joe" is not aware of! In addition, I make less per trip than a F/A at the same seniority made in 1986! I only require the same % raisee per year that my coworkers have received! Why should a F/A make< after 20% pay concessions, more than me at the same seniority? I don't receive Holiday pay, crew meals, paid training and I have to clean the plane between flights! I realize that this is part of my job description, but why should I be payed less?






..didn't the rampers vote down the first TA that they were presented? I agree...go ah


ead and "tentatively agree" to the company's offer. If the numbers are behind the union, it would get voted down. At least then, the company would know that the offer wasn't acceptable to their employees, and not have to rely on a guy who is more interested in media attention

when i spoke of 20% pay cuts, I was refering to my Cousin at AA and an exgirlfriend at US. The 20% cuts, while still making more, were RE: my cousin with the same seniority as a F/A with AA. Sorry for the confusion, yet, I still feel that this is wrong! :blink:

 

[skycruiser]

Well...here in my town, the largest employer is a company called "Sprint". I used to work there. The pay was good, and the benefits were nothing to sneeze at. But even back then, raises were limited to 3%. Now, considering that Sprint has eliminated thousands of jobs, eliminated most pay raises, and implemented a "mandatory 50" hour work week from their salaried employees, I feel that I know enough people to who would love to see a 3% increase in their paycheck. Well, I knew enough people like that. When the largest employer in your city eliminates a lot of jobs and puts a lot of people with similar skill sets on the street, a lot of them have to move away to a place where they can actually get hired by a company.

That is a terrible comparison! Sprint among other things has horrible customer service, poor/limited coverage (even though they say nation wide), hidden charges on the bill, cumbersome text messaging, basically a lousy product causing folks like me to move on to a competitor. That is why they have eliminated jobs, pay raises and implemented a fifty hour work week. LUV, on the other hand, has not been in the red yet, according to you LUV fans the airline is the best of the best and cannot due wrong so of course the F/A want their share. Oh and BTW, if the employees at Sprint were organized management would have been unable to just cut pay raises (which would have most likely been more than 3%) and stipulate a mandatory work week.

 

[KCFlyer]

That is a terrible comparison! Sprint among other things has horrible customer service, poor/limited coverage (even though they say nation wide), hidden charges on the bill, cumbersome text messaging, basically a lousy product causing folks like me to move on to a competitor. That is why they have eliminated jobs, pay raises and implemented a fifty hour work week. LUV, on the other hand, has not been in the red yet, according to you LUV fans the airline is the best of the best and cannot due wrong so of course the F/A want their share. Oh and BTW, if the employees at Sprint were organized management would have been unable to just cut pay raises (which would have most likely been more than 3%) and stipulate a mandatory work week.

Might I suggest to you that you check out just about any consumer advocates website. You'll find that what you describe for Sprint also applies to just about every other company in the telecom sector.

Sprint is unionized...usually with those that are providing the poor service - those are the hourly folks. The good pay was for the salaried employees - I don't know of many unionized salaried employees.

It doesn't really matter to me now. I sold my stake in LUV last Tuesday. So I'm just a former (15 year) stockholder watching the company from the sidelines. Maybe any FA action will get LUV stock price down to nice level to buy back in the future. Trouble is, with so many of their coworkers depending on a higher stock price, I don't see how they will be able to garner a heckuva lot of support from those groups.

 

[JS]

That is a terrible comparison! Sprint among other things has horrible customer service, poor/limited coverage (even though they say nation wide), hidden charges on the bill, cumbersome text messaging, basically a lousy product causing folks like me to move on to a competitor. That is why they have eliminated jobs, pay raises and implemented a fifty hour work week. LUV, on the other hand, has not been in the red yet, according to you LUV fans the airline is the best of the best and cannot due wrong so of course the F/A want their share. Oh and BTW, if the employees at Sprint were organized management would have been unable to just cut pay raises (which would have most likely been more than 3%) and stipulate a mandatory work week.

If all the employees at Sprint were organized, there would be no more Sprint.

This isn't 1970. There are a lot of other phone companies that are allowed to compete, just like the airlines since 1978.

If it weren't for airline deregulation, Southwest would still be a regional airline. What has made you a large, successful airline today (competition) can also put you in the financial crapper along with AA, UA, DL and US.

If you people get away with your asinine demands that Southwest simply give away its cash on hand to the employees, you're going to be the next USAirways, and AirTran and JetBlue will be the new Southwests.

 

[SWAFA30]

Interesting. Just got in from the longest 3 day trip in recorded history and here we are in the midst of a Grade A clusterf$@k. That is what this whole thing has turned into. So...the "big" news is that the union and the company have reached an impasse. No Duh.

I got wind of this latest bit of "news" when I checked my base mailbox lastnight to find yet another round of memos from my company and union leadership. I swear a forest of trees have made the ultimate sacrifice in the interest of these ceaseless dueling memoes. I swear if I get one more stupid memo from either side in my mailbox my head is going to explode...if you never hear from me again, you will now know what happened.... and for what.... No progress. Nothing of any substance to offer. Just more of the same two dogs barking at each other across the "fence" that is the flight attendant membership. "Declare an impasse!"...."We won't!"...."Yes, you will!"....."You hurt my feelings!"...."No you hurt my feelings"....."You won't stop talking to press!"...."Yeah, well you won't bargain in good faith!" Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Has anyone seen Susan Lucci? I think we have a Soap Opera....err...Daytime Drama on our hands.

Just a few quick thoughts and then I am going to try to wrestle my uniforms into the laundry....I think I'm gonna need a whip and chair.

Would someone please come up with a new analogy for what happens when an employee group raids the profits. The whole "Golden Goose" or "Goose Egg" or "Golden Goose Egg" or whatever is wearing a little thin. I swear I didn't lay a hand on Old Mother Goose but she's looking a little peak-ed. What say we give the old bird Easter weekend off and find a new way to characterize greedy, myopic workers. How about...if you bang on the Pinball Machine it will 'Tilt'...or...."The slot machine only holds so many nickels....anyway.... I'm drawing a blank right now but if anyone can think of a good one....drop me a line. Thanks.

Moving on. Someone questioned the "need" for all the new hires that have come on line recently. The class sizes are not out of line for the number of aircraft deliveries scheduled for 2004.. 47 new -700s with 17 -200 retirements for a net gain of 30 aircraft. Lock-out or no, the planes are coming PHL goes on line in 30 days and we need people. I'm sure when the ramp-up to the lock-out begins...we won't have to guess at it. Cattle Call ads will appear on Southwest.com and in the employment sections of all the major newspapers. Rather than hiring, likely, the focus is on working with the FAA to get an abbreviated training program developed and approved. The big hiring push will probably occur after the union holds a strike vote. In the post 9/11 world, recruiting and hiring is pricey stuff what with background checks drug tests and fingerprinting and all. Why spend all the money to build an enormous "pool" only to have a union strike vote fail.


There seem to be those who doubt Southwest's ability to "manufacture" a large number of flight attendants in short order. No matter where you come down on this issue, don't underestimate this company. They LOVE a challenge. Management will rally the troops. The battle cry will be "OUT WITH THE OLD....IN WITH THE NEW!!!" Remember when Southwest went head to head with Shuttle by United in California....folks were running around headquarters in olive drab, camoflauge, and grease paint? Southwest Airlines is and has been a model of efficiency for decades. They will be holding training classes in every maintenance hangar, tool shed and broom closet on the property. Think SWA won't be able to get it done...just tell em they can't and then stand back and watch. It will be their finest hour.


My advice to my co-workers is to stay informed and active and work on your "B" plan. Take the time to do a serious inventory of your marketable skills. Decide if you want to stay in this ridiculously volatile industry. Check out the other carriers that are hiring. Always wished SWA flew to Atlanta? Give AirTran a look-see. I hear jetBlue provides crew meals and uniforms that won't get ya snickered at. ATA does some amazing International Charters. Rocky Mountain High? How about Frontier? There is a big world out there beyond SWA and they don't paint their airplanes ugly colors.

Why bother? Because this thing has officially spun out of control. It is painfully obvious that the SS "Cooler Heads Prevail" and HMS "Take the High Road" ships have sailed. These "talks" have now devolved to the point that the parties involved are bickering over who returned who's phone call and when. How proud they must be. The only ship left in port at this point is the "Ship of Big Fools"...All Aboard!!!

Thom and the NT have my support but while they do what they gotta do, I'm gonna do what I gotta do. I'm polishin up my resume and dropping the extra 15 pounds I put on back in training....I hear jetBlue likes em skinny.

P.S. someone might wanna send a referee over to the twin SWA Flight Attendant thread over on A.net....it's get a little rough over there.

 

[SWAFA30]

It doesn't really matter to me now. I sold my stake in LUV last Tuesday. So I'm just a former (15 year) stockholder watching the company from the sidelines. Maybe any FA action will get LUV stock price down to nice level to buy back in the future. Trouble is, with so many of their coworkers depending on a higher stock price, I don't see how they will be able to garner a heckuva lot of support from those groups.

Naah...a large portion of the other work groups thought we were spoiled, overpaid, and underworked long before this mess started. To many of them, the flight attendant group getting paid one plug nickel over minimum wage for passing out peanuts and laying around eating expensed room service in posh hotels is ludicrous. I came from Ground Ops, I've heard the way they talk about Inflight Service. That is not to say we don't have some support amongst ground ops, we do. But, the supports are a silent minority. The exception rather than the rule. They already don't like us....messing with their portfolios is just another brick in the wall that exist between us and the rest of the company.

 

[N735SA]

How about the Company gives a pay increase.
Get rid of 401k, profit sharing, free travel.
Sounds like a plan.

 

[skycruiser]

Might I suggest to you that you check out just about any consumer advocates website. You'll find that what you describe for Sprint also applies to just about every other company in the telecom sector.

Sprint is unionized...usually with those that are providing the poor service - those are the hourly folks. The good pay was for the salaried employees - I don't know of many unionized salaried employees.

It doesn't really matter to me now. I sold my stake in LUV last Tuesday. So I'm just a former (15 year) stockholder watching the company from the sidelines. Maybe any FA action will get LUV stock price down to nice level to buy back in the future. Trouble is, with so many of their coworkers depending on a higher stock price, I don't see how they will be able to garner a heckuva lot of support from those groups.

Other problems, labor aside, LUV will begin to run into is the one thing they have never had... competition. LUV has been pissing in other peoples pools, so to speak, for years and has about driven USAir out of business all with little to zero competition. Now ATA, Frontier, Jet Blue, AirTran, Song, and of course good ole TED are offering a better product at Southwest prices. In no way do they threaten LUV in the short term but these airlines, just like Southwest once did, will slowly start to gobble up pieces of the LLC market share. The other problem Southwest will have is their size (they are a national carrier with a large route structure), the cost of upgrading 388 aircraft with an IFE or some sort of "gee whiz" gadget to catch up with the other guys and with a relatively older fleet of 217 737-200/300 their maintenance, operating and replacement cost will start to increasing while the smaller LLC remain relatively lower. It will be interesting to see how the F/A issue will unfold along with the other issues and what the the airline does to adapt.

 

[mweiss]

The cost isn't the issue, though. It's the cost per unit, which should, in fact be lower than at other carriers, because of the power of volume pricing.

WN's route structure is actually its greatest strength of all. With the addition of each new city, it becomes easier for WN to add another city as well, because of the point to point nature of WN's business model. That also makes it harder for a competitor to come in and take their network away.

How much of a premium that network will command is anybody's guess, but I'd say it's moderate. It doesn't add much value to consumers; it just makes competition more difficult for other airlines.

 

[orangeman]

How many f/a's at SW? How long do you think it takes for training? Besides AA tried this about 10 yrs ago, they failed.

Approx. 7,300!!!

 

[Nebbie Nuts!]

How many f/a's at SW? How long do you think it takes for training? Besides AA tried this about 10 yrs ago, they failed.

AA "failed" because Clinton stepped in.

 

[FWAAA]

In 1993, the FAA allowed AA to reduce its FA training program from 6 weeks to just 8 days, so don't think it will take forever to train 7,300 replacements to hand out Coke and peanuts. It ain't rocket science. 😱

And don't forget the TWA FA strikers in 1986 who never got their jobs back. There are thousands of recently furloughed TWA FAs who might jump at the chance to work for WN. B)