Trouble Ahead

[firstamendment]

Hey you guys hang in there. Even if the job market was the best in the history of the US, there are those that believe f/a's are airheads whose job can be done by anyone and who are not worthy of raises.

 

[orangeman]

In 1993, the FAA allowed AA to reduce its FA training program from 6 weeks to just 8 days, so don't think it will take forever to train 7,300 replacements to hand out Coke and peanuts. It ain't rocket science. 😱

And don't forget the TWA FA strikers in 1986 who never got their jobs back. There are thousands of recently furloughed TWA FAs who might jump at the chance to work for WN. B)

If all we are trained to do is to "pass out coke and peanuts", why does it take 5 weeks to do? God forbid you,a friend or loved one is giving birth, having a heart attack, a stroke or a seizure etc. If the "peanut and coke" server can't help you I might feel bad for you!
The RLA states that striking F/A's will be called back in order of seniority after a strike. This is before any more outside people can be hired when the strike is over. I realize that most pax think of us as "peanut pushers" only, until we use our First aid and or Evacuation abilities. I have given CPR 3 times after a pax heart stopped and a good friend has helped a woman give birth and had 2 emergency landings, during wich, pax have to be briefed etc.
If you want to be on a flight with 6 or 8 day "peanut servers" that is your choice.

 

[KCFlyer]

If all we are trained to do is to "pass out coke and peanuts", why does it take 5 weeks to do? God forbid you,a friend or loved one is giving birth, having a heart attack, a stroke or a seizure etc. If the "peanut and coke" server can't help you I might feel bad for you!
The RLA states that striking F/A's will be called back in order of seniority after a strike. This is before any more outside people can be hired when the strike is over. I realize that most pax think of us as "peanut pushers" only, until we use our First aid and or Evacuation abilities. I have given CPR 3 times after a pax heart stopped and a good friend has helped a woman give birth and had 2 emergency landings, during wich, pax have to be briefed etc.
If you want to be on a flight with 6 or 8 day "peanut servers" that is your choice.

With all due respect Orangeman, what percentage of your work year was devoted to performing CPR or evacuating aircraft verses serving coke and peanuts? I work with a lot of nurses, many whom have been on flights (some even on Southwest flights), and when an inflight medical emergency occured, the call went out over the PA for a doctor or nurse. When my coworkers responded to those calls, the FA's pretty much took on the role of "assistant" - a job that could have been performed by just about any passenger on the plane. In fact, someone who was trained a week prior on CPR could perform that just about as well as someone who was a 20 year veteran.

I understand that the FAA requires the training on how to evacuate the aircraft in the event of an emergency - the real "test" of how well one has learned those procedures doesn't occur until an aircraft has to be evacuated in a real emergency. How many times in your career have you been tested under those conditions? But beyond that - passengers who sit in an exit row must also agree to assist in the evacuation of the aircraft in an emergency. Their "training" is pretty much limited to reading a card in a seatback. Would those people, with their lack of experience, help or hinder you in the performance of that aspect of your job? So what is the difference between a 5 week employee and a 20 year employee?

 

[FWAAA]

If all we are trained to do is to "pass out coke and peanuts", why does it take 5 weeks to do? God forbid you,a friend or loved one is giving birth, having a heart attack, a stroke or a seizure etc. If the "peanut and coke" server can't help you I might feel bad for you!
The RLA states that striking F/A's will be called back in order of seniority after a strike. This is before any more outside people can be hired when the strike is over. I realize that most pax think of us as "peanut pushers" only, until we use our First aid and or Evacuation abilities. I have given CPR 3 times after a pax heart stopped and a good friend has helped a woman give birth and had 2 emergency landings, during wich, pax have to be briefed etc.
If you want to be on a flight with 6 or 8 day "peanut servers" that is your choice.

I realize that you are trained much more extensively than on the drink service, but let's face it: That's all you typically DO on most flights. Someone gives the preflight safety briefing (which nearly everyone on the plane can recite from memory already), you hand out peanuts and drinks, you collect the trash, you relay the captain's orders re: seatbelt sign, etc. and you bid the passengers farewell when you land.

If you worked for AA (and others), you would also spend most of the flight in the galley complaining about your employer, filling out next month's bid sheets, ignoring the paying passengers to chat with your nonrevving friends, and a whole host of things that WN FAs don't bother with. 😀

And apparently the FAA can be convinced to shorten the FA training to eight days - so don't everyone get the idea it is real hard to replace you. B) Besides, don't fool yourself; passengers would probably fare ok even if you weren't on board.

WN reported a Q1 profit of what, $26 million? After paying wages, salaries and benefits of $589 million? Not too much meat on that bone to spread around the FAs, let alone all the employees of WN. Just keep telling yourself "Southwest has lots of money - Southwest can afford it." B)

 

[JS]

Originally posted by orangeman:

If all we are trained to do is to "pass out coke and peanuts", why does it take 5 weeks to do?

I've been wondering the same thing.

If you want to be on a flight with 6 or 8 day "peanut servers" that is your choice.

I'll take my chances!

 

[SWAFA30]

Attempting to argue this particular point based on how long we might or might not spend in training is an exercise in futility.

See..it's like this. This great company we call SWA run their famed People Department based on one, singular core principle...What might that be?

HIRE FOR ATTITUDE, TRAIN FOR SKILL

The thinking behind this little axiom is that you can teach anyone...yes anyone to do the vast majority, if not all of the jobs at this company. BUT, not everyone has the right attitude to uphold the internal and External Customer Service Principles that SWA "says" that they hold dear. In short...for 30 some odd years, it has not simply been about getting people...but getting the right people.

Let's just all save ourselves a great deal of time and energy and concede the fact that when push comes to shove...this company will crank out as many replacement stews as it takes to keep the airline flying and they will do so in short order. The big question is, what impact will throwing away their ability to hire the right people have on this company. Like or not, inflight service spends the most "face" time with the passenger. "Did you hear the one about how travel managers approached AA and told them...either your flight attendants start treating our people better or we're taking our business elsewhere"?

Are are all 7,000 of us gifted masters and mistresses of Inflight Service who are patently irreplaceable?.....Uh...no. Even on my most egotistical day I have never been that deluded. But obviously, this company who has built a worldwide reputation for Customer Service saw something in us to put us in the trusted position of spending thousands of hours of "face-time" with their precious Customers. Are there 7,000 people out there who do the job just as well if not better?....Yep....Can SWA find 7,000 people who meet the high bar they themselves have set for Customer Service in 6-8 days...that one I don't know about. That my friends is a tall order. Unless of course all that schmaltz about "hiring the right people" and applicants being the right "fit" for the company is just rubbish...in that case...all bets are off...fire up the Redi-Made-Steward(ess) Maker and let's see how fast SWA can crank em out.

I'm sure all the furloughed USAirways/United/American/Northwest Flight Attendants who are waiting in the wings to take my job won't bring any of their old "union baggage" from their old companies with them to WN...especially if their former carriers can manage to right the ship and their bretheren and sisteren...start trying to unconcede some of their concessions. A few years from now the natives might start to get restless again, except this time the company will have to fire 10,000 people instead of 7,000.

SWA would not be in this mess if they had never started that claptrap about "luving" their employees in the first place. Just come right out and tell the truth. This is a business, not an "interpersonal relationship" you work...we pay you...don't like what we pay...go work someplace else. No muss, no fuss, no hurt feelings, no misunderstandings. Everyone knows what they are getting out of the deal up front. At the risk of sounding crass...there's a reason prostitution is the worlds'oldest profession. Everyone involved in the "transaction" knows exactly what to expect.

You tell someone you "luv" em often enough...eventually they're gonna ask you to prove it.

 

[Fly]

United doesn't have any involuntary furloughed flight attendants anymore. Everyone was called back. Only people left off are the ones who asked to be off (but that will probably be ending soon)

 

[KCFlyer]

Let's just all save ourselves a great deal of time and energy and concede the fact that when push comes to shove...this company will crank out as many replacement stews as it takes to keep the airline flying and they will do so in short order. The big question is, what impact will throwing away their ability to hire the right people have on this company. Like or not, inflight service spends the most "face" time with the passenger. "Did you hear the one about how travel managers approached AA and told them...either your flight attendants start treating our people better or we're taking our business elsewhere"?

SWAFA30 - I believe I read somewhere that Southwest gets something like 35,000 applications every year. The vast majority of those only receive a "thank you for your interest" card - nobody really knows how many of those are the "right" people. I do know for a fact that I myself got one of those "thank you for your interest" cards several years ago. But I think that if you talked with some of the folks that I have met at Southwest, they'd tell you that I really did possess the "right" attitude. So if that happened to me, one has to wonder how many of those other 34,999 people also possess the "right" attitude. In other words, they have an awful lot of resumes already from people that want to work for your company.

Yep - saw the thread on Airliners about the AA flight attendants. You know something? I question that. I haven't had any "bad" experiences on American. I even visited with some FA's a couple of years ago when they were in some rather heated negotiations of their own. And despite the troubles they were having, they really did have pride in their company. And I've heard on my AA flights exactly the same amount of "galley talk" as I have on my many Southwest flights....none.

SWA would not be in this mess if they had never started that claptrap about "luving" their employees in the first place. Just come right out and tell the truth. This is a business, not an "interpersonal relationship" you work...we pay you...don't like what we pay...go work someplace else. No muss, no fuss, no hurt feelings, no misunderstandings. Everyone knows what they are getting out of the deal up front. At the risk of sounding crass...there's a reason prostitution is the worlds'oldest profession. Everyone involved in the "transaction" knows exactly what to expect.

It's true Southwest is a business. But try working for just about any other company in America, then compare the two...I do believe you'd see that your employer really DOES "luv" you. Unfortunately, you seem to have fallen victim to your union leaders propaganda. Did you notice in Forbes that he was upset that Southwest was using the media to get it's message out? I believe his quote was "The contract will be resolved when we return to the negotiating table, NOT THROUGH PUBLIC POSTURING". Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the key aspects of his "strategic bargaining campaign" a very strong media presence? Back around May of last year, didn't he basically refuse Mr. Parker's demand that THEY (the TWU) not negotiate through public posturing and end the media campaign? So what's the difference? Thom doesn't get paid by Southwest airlines, so it's nothing to him if he paints Parker as the second coming of Frank Lorenzo. It means diddly squat to him if you (the members he represents) begins to view the company as "just another employer". But it means the world to you. You don't think they 'luv' you now? You'd better hope they don't adopt the "we're just a business and you are replaceable" attitude. If they do, your life will become as enjoyable as your compatriots over at AA, UAL, and every other airline. Your life will become a lot like the movie "Office Space" (very funny movie, and quite accurate about what life in "just another company" is like). But Thom won't care....he'll still be getting paid while working to turn yet another workgroup against their company.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Ask anyone at UA, AA, or US just how much they've taken in cuts!

ANYONE who makes wage comparisons between bankrupt and solvent carriers is AN IDIOT at best and a management patsy/synchophant at worst.

Compare apples to apples or don't bother.

 

[Fubijaakr]

As long as you get to fly for $19 it doesn't really matter to you how the employees are treated does it?

SOMEONE finally gets to the heart of the matter, the "bottom line" so to speak.

Joe Average American thinks cheap airline transportation is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.

Guess what?

It ISN'T!!!

 

[JS]

SWAFA30, the bitchy old hags who are flight attendants at AA will not be submitting an application for employment at Southwest. They have high seniority, so why would they leave?

It's the nice people without the ingrained unionized tunnel vision who were laid off because they didn't have enough seniority who will be submitting applications.

They will be absolutely delighted to work for Southwest while the current crop will be sitting at home, slapping themselves on the head and saying "Why the hell did we do that to ourselves?"

 

[Vikedog64]

:down:



mweiss, you'ved got to be out of your ever-loving mind!



It's obvious you have NOT done the math. A 17% raise over 6.5 years is a raise of only 2.6153846% (and so on) per year! Inflation is about 3% per year!

Southwest Airlines has $1,800,000,000.00 in HARD, COLD, CASH, on hand; IN THE BANK!!!

If asking for a pay raise that is More than what Flight Attendants made in 1986 and is MORE than inflation will kill the "Golden Goose"; than by golly, at this point I am ready, willing, and able to do so!

Obviously economics and finance are not your strong suite; as the $1.8 billion dollars in the bank will absolutely be way more than enough to keep from killing the goose. And, we are continuing to make money each and every quarter. And, after all; labor expenses are a part of the "cost of doing business"; which absolutely should financially be accounted for in the business model.

If the business model does not account for labor costs; then it needs to be changed as soon as practically possible!

I'm sorry if you and your family's skills, work, and future is worth equal to, or less than the cost of inflation; but MY SKILLS, WORK, AND EXPERIENCE NEVER WILL BE!

I refuse to be financially devalued or demeaned in this contract; as I know how top-notch an employee I am. And, I know the value I add to each and every flight; in order to keep my fine and worthy customers coming back to see me and Southwest Airlines.

I refuse to offer up the same value of service to my customers; that Southwest Airlines is offering up to their internal customers, ME!

Rant temporarily ended.


:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Wow, that was impressive. :blink:

 

[Winglet]

FAs can turn up the heat on Herb a lot more by NOT having a GENERAL strike.

 

[SWAFA30]

SWAFA30 - I believe I read somewhere that Southwest gets something like 35,000 applications every year. The vast majority of those only receive a "thank you for your interest" card - nobody really knows how many of those are the "right" people. I do know for a fact that I myself got one of those "thank you for your interest" cards several years ago. But I think that if you talked with some of the folks that I have met at Southwest, they'd tell you that I really did possess the "right" attitude. So if that happened to me, one has to wonder how many of those other 34,999 people also possess the "right" attitude. In other words, they have an awful lot of resumes already from people that want to work for your company.

There are 250+ million people in this country. I have every confidence that within that teeming mass there are more than enough potential stews who possess the "right stuff". I never said otherwise...in fact I said.....

"Are there 7,000 people out there who do the job just as well if not better?....Yep....Can SWA find 7,000 people who meet the high bar they themselves have set for Customer Service in 6-8 days...that one I don't know about."

I would never say that there are not suitable replacements out there. That is waaay too shaky a limb to climb out on. My only question was will SWA have the luxury to sift out the chaff from the wheat while their aircraft sit idle and the company hemhorrages cash. The other LCCs and even the regionals offer better starting pay than we do. Once we're out on the street and Big Jim offers the newbies the payraise we turned down I'm sure they'll come a runnin but for now at least jetBlue is the prom queen and SWA is the wallflower. There is definitely interest in the flight attendant position here...always has been... always will be..you know what with the "glamour" and all...however the resume pool is not quite as deep is it might need to be...there are better deals out there for the aspiring flight attendant. I believe finding replacements is totally "doable" I just question the amount of time necessary to make it happen. Of course the whole "Flight Attendant Certifcation" issue adds a whole different wrinkle to subject. If the company can keep up the rope-a-dope long enough for the certification to take effect we may be even easier to replace.

Yep - saw the thread on Airliners about the AA flight attendants. You know something? I question that. I haven't had any "bad" experiences on American. I even visited with some FA's a couple of years ago when they were in some rather heated negotiations of their own. And despite the troubles they were having, they really did have pride in their company.

Much has changed over past few months and years....doing the same job for less money...even if you were overpaid in the first place can have an impact on morale....witness USAirways. I don't question the validity of your experiences but American is an enormous airline, the largest in the world.


And I've heard on my AA flights exactly the same amount of "galley talk" as I have on my many Southwest flights....none.

Again, American is an enormous airline. Apparently, the shift in attitude has not progessed to the point that each and every flight is impacted. At least the customers in question brought the matter to AA's attention and gave them a chance to respond. When you disappoint a customer and they never bother to complain and thereby give you a chance to make it right...often they are gone forever.


It's true Southwest is a business. But try working for just about any other company in America, then compare the two...I do believe you'd see that your employer really DOES "luv" you.

This is not my first job...I've worked for other Fortune 500 companies...several as a matter of fact and on the surface there is no comparison...but once you get beyond the superficiality of the hearts and flowers SWA is just like all the other companies I have worked for...except SWA just has a much, much better "rap". I don't blame SWA for selling the bill of goods...I blame myself for making the purchase. As the kids say..."Don't hate the player...hate the game." In the grand scheme of things coming to a coporation in search of anything other than a job let alone love is downright creepy. Honestly, it's borderline Orwellian.



Unfortunately, you seem to have fallen victim to your union leaders propaganda.

If only that were true...it would actually be the much easier path to take because then I would not have to take any personal responsiblity for the conclusions I have drawn...I could lay it all at the feet of TWU 556. Sadly, the bloom began to fall off the rose long before this fiasco started...these negotiations have simply hastend the process.

Did you notice in Forbes that he was upset that Southwest was using the media to get it's message out? I believe his quote was "The contract will be resolved when we return to the negotiating table, NOT THROUGH PUBLIC POSTURING".

Didn't read the article, but I trust your memory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the key aspects of his "strategic bargaining campaign" a very strong media presence?

Again...that sounds right to me.

Back around May of last year, didn't he basically refuse Mr. Parker's demand that THEY (the TWU) not negotiate through public posturing and end the media campaign?

Your memory is much better than mine...again, I defer to your recall.

So what's the difference?

Got me.

Thom doesn't get paid by Southwest airlines, so it's nothing to him if he paints Parker as the second coming of Frank Lorenzo.

That's kinda Thom's job...he's the President of a Union a$$ deep into contract negotiations between SWA and a membership that was
ticked-off before they even went to the table two years ago. If he comes off looking "soft" on Jim to the membership the more vocal factions would be screaming for his ouster louder than a teenage girl at a Britney Spears concert.

It means diddly squat to him if you (the members he represents) begins to view the company as "just another employer".

It is just another employer. Jim may not be the devil but he's not the second coming of our lord and savior either. He's not even Herb. He is just a man. This is just a company.

But it means the world to you.

No...actually..it doesn't. I have an investment of time here. I don't relish the thought of starting at the bottom of someone elses' seniority list but I've survived worse. My friends and family mean the world to me. My health and safety mean the world to mean. This job is not who I am...it is simply what I do.

You don't think they 'luv' you now? You'd better hope they don't adopt the "we're just a business and you are replaceable" attitude. If they do, your life will become as enjoyable as your compatriots over at AA, UAL, and every other airline.

In my opinion...there is neither "luv" not "hate". I would characterize the company's feeling for this work group as passionate disinterest.
"luving" or "hating" requires giving a d@mn...they don't.

Will I collapse into despair when the day comes that I can't strap on the red and khaki? Perhaps if I were beholden to SWA for not just my paycheck but my validation and sense of purpose....Yes...but tough as it might be to believe....I'm not.


Your life will become a lot like the movie "Office Space" (very funny movie, and quite accurate about what life in "just another company" is like).

Soo...if I don't work for SWA, all is lost? There is no other career to be had...this place is it?...the be all...end all. My only other option is being locked away in cubicle h&ll for all of eternity? That assertion is so disturbing I don't know where to begin. This is an airline. Not Nirvana. Difficult as it might be to believe more than a handful of us came to this field of endeavor by choice...not because we are unemployable dolts who had no other career options. I've only got so many years on this good earth...I've invested a sizeable chunk of them working at SWA...I'm hanging around on the off chance that my investment might pay off...If not I owe it to myself to cut my losses and move on. The clock is ticking.

But Thom won't care....he'll still be getting paid while working to turn yet another workgroup against their company

Thom can't take this or any workgroup anyplace they don't want to go....we're not that stupid and Thom is not that persuasive...if he were....I'd have my payraise.

 

[SWAFA30]

SWAFA30, the bitchy old hags who are flight attendants at AA will not be submitting an application for employment at Southwest. They have high seniority, so why would they leave?

Don't have to be old to be "bitchy" and people keep telling me there are tons of furloughed flight attendants who would jump at the chance to work for SWA. But that's not really the point of the anecdote. The point is that it would seem rather simply being "diet coke and peanut pushers" flight attendants actually have a real and direct impact on an airlines Customers.


It's the nice people without the ingrained unionized tunnel vision who were laid off because they didn't have enough seniority who will be submitting applications.

Isn't most if not all of the TWA flight attendant seniority list on the street ? Further and sadly it's not looking too good for the entire USAirways seniority list both on the street and off. If the nice ones have any sense they've already applied at jetBlue...the starting pay is better, they have those cool TVs and no pesky unions.

They will be absolutely delighted to work for Southwest while the current crop will be sitting at home, slapping themselves on the head and saying "Why the hell did we do that to ourselves?"

Delight is fleeting.

Can't speak for my co-workers but I'll pass on the
self-flagellation....that won't get me a re-employed any faster. Do I want the lemon? Nope. Will I turn it into lemonade if I get it? You bet.