TWU International
- Thread starter proAMT
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or Fox News
In reply to the International imposing a new agreement;
I dont think they would do that at this point. The company isn't claiming that they are ready to file Bankruptcy. Only certain International officials and a few Local representatives say that.
In reply to what would I seek to change and if we should start from scratch;
I would love to start from scratch but I dont think thats possible, I think if we did that the NMB would simply put us on ice. Instead I would seek to throw out all the TAs from this May and go back to our table position with a few modifications(which I felt was too low in the first place) with the addition of one year(since our prior table positions amendable date has already passed) and add a 6% increase to the additional year. Our agreement would become amendable next spring, then we could start from scratch. Instead of a five year agreement it would be a three year agreement.
Line vs base.
There is a difference between line work and base work. Those differences have never been addressed. Not just the cost of living differences (which is a difference between line statiions as well) but also the fact that the base usually has off the holidays and weekends and primarily works day shift. I would suggest, again but it was rejected by the committee, that we go to percentage increases for shift work, 5% for afternoons and 10% for nights. Thats pretty much the standard outside of aviation. There should also continue to be a line premium because the line works live flights and in the weather. Thats doesnt mean they work harder but it does mean they work under more stressful conditions. Of course base workers should also get those differentials if they work those shifts and should get line pay if assigned to work weekends to discourage the company from making them work weekends.
OH career decision time.
Whats really facing OH here is do they want to continue their careers as Airline workers or become MRO workers? I have no desire to become an MRO worker. If they choose to remain Airline workers it probably means a smaller workforce but at the higher airline rates. As people leave they wont be replaced until AA starts to grow again, thats pretty much what we have accepted out on the line, or, do they want to compete with Timco , AAR etc for 3P work? The MRO route may or may not, restore headcount, Tulsa has seen a 26% decline in headcount since 2003 -Local 562 has seen a 20% decline, AFW has seen a 6% decline-primarily because half the base is high value TEASEL, but it will come at the price of reduced wages and benifits without any guarantee that headcount will go up or be maintained.
From my observations AFWs President is firmly "Airline Worker", he is also willing to make a committment to address the cost of living issues as well, the President from Tulsa is committeed to making Tulsa "a world class MRO", along with having the membership make the sacrifices required to do that, with the exception of Crew Chiefs, he was seeking a $5/hour raise for them because "They do all the work anyway". MCI really isnt a major player but they and DFW seem to be aligned with Tulsa with the MRO position.
If you choose to be an MRO worker then you have to compete with MRO workers in what the MRO pays them and how much they produce for the MRO which makes a profit off their labor, if you choose to remain airline workers you have to compete with what the MRO charges AA for the labor they sell (typically at least double what they pay their employees, if not more) however headcount will be determined soley based upon the work generated by the AA Fleet. As the workload from the fleet shrinks or expands so will the headcount.
Last June the company claimed that with the drawdown of the MD-80 fleet and the addition of new 737s that by 2012 they would start to see significant vacancies in the dock plan for OH. (With the closure of MCI we no longer know if those projections are still relevant). They also said if they did not pick up 3P work to fill those vacancies (White Spaces) it would result in a need to reduce headcount anywhere from 800 to 1200 heads in OH from the current (June 2009) headcount. Well by September MCI will already cut that to between 500 and 900 and the company revealed at a different presentation that they expect to lose 300 to 400 mechanics a year through attrition (with the revelation that 54% are over 50 years of age that number is probably very conservative). By 2012 we will probably lose systemwide more than the 1200 that the company is claiming the reduced workload would make redundant. By 2012 the line stations will be desperately understaffed, thats why the company wants to expand the use of OSMs. OSMs cant transfer to the line, as mechanics from the bases are forced to the line OSMs will take over the base.
I am not in favor in devolving into an MRO worker. MROs were training camps to get the experience required to get into "the majors". That may cause some to consider me a "CAVE" man, but if being against moving backwards makes me a "CAVE man, so be it. I think we have gone too far backwards as it is. How about you?
I dont think the International would approve the change but what you are proposing would basically tie the Locals hands at the Convention. For instance I nominated JR Ruiz to run against Donny Tindal at the Convention, the vote was close enough that we had to do a standing count. We have to have a certain amount of autonomy to make decisions without prior membership approval. Why would you want to lock out someone who has been removed by the International? Why not let the members decide if their elected Local officers can accept a non-paid position as well then? After all if they accept a non-paid position then their duties as an International official are in addition to their duties as an elected officer.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
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OK so the MRO vs Line is clearly not going away. I cannot understand why the OH AMT has to go on feild trips to do the work the "superior" line AMT should be able to do. But often this happens. When on a field trip will the lowly OH AMT make the Superior Line Premium Pay? Or will he be relegated to lowly OH AMT pay while bailing out the Line?
The ONLY valid arguement is cost-of-living.
The rest is nothing more than Elite Brainwashing.
So...
Then shoudn't it be fair to allow the senior AMT OH worker the chance to displace the lower senior AMT Line Worker?
Now that OH is going to be relegated MRO then those with enough seniority should have the right to NOT be relegated to that.
By the way the Holiday/Weekend arguement appears to be leaving with this agreement also. The 1/7 rule is gone and the 24/7 rule is now at O/H.
If we are going to divide then allow the senior AMT his choice which side of the fence he wants to be on.
In the last week, I have heard no less than 10 AMT's ready to go to the line as they are not interested in being MRO either.
So one time window SENIORITY based Re-Alignment Bid System.
If the game is changing this much then time to re-bid the system.
Low seniority left can either go to MRO or hit the street.
On top of that, you are now without a chance of ever leaving this union. The MRO will only survive by being the majority as the "I've Got Mine" society thinking takes over unionism. I now tend to think the TWU Consitution is looking better all the time to protect us at MRO from the elitist on the Line. The more I read the luckier I feel and see what the true agenda was of the Line AMT trying to escape the undemocratic ways of the TWU. Those "undemocratic ways" appear to be the only thing saving my job at this point. Most of you believe in socialism except when it comes to treatment of the MRO worker and you are more than happy to shaft him/her to make your own personal gain. I get it now. And thank you very much for clearing that up....I needed that.
When the SCAB A&P takes on your powerful elite job and replaces you while you are on the picket line, we will then know, just as NWA proved that you were not really that great afterall. And there is no shortage of those with an A&P willing to screw the other guy for personal gain. Just as you are thinking now, they will take theirs at the expense of someone else and blame it on someone or something else just as the SCABS at NWA did.
Well now that I see the big picture let me tell you something. As a welder and a Crew Chief that is 50 yrs old, I get $560 per month more with this agreement, and I get to keep the retirement medical - Screw You Guys! I'VE GOT MINE BROTHER and will now vote YES to save my own ass from you powerful unrelenting more important Line AMT's. Unfriggin believeable that you call yourselves union men.
Good Luck I am no longer with you.
The ONLY valid arguement is cost-of-living.
The rest is nothing more than Elite Brainwashing.
So...
Then shoudn't it be fair to allow the senior AMT OH worker the chance to displace the lower senior AMT Line Worker?
Now that OH is going to be relegated MRO then those with enough seniority should have the right to NOT be relegated to that.
By the way the Holiday/Weekend arguement appears to be leaving with this agreement also. The 1/7 rule is gone and the 24/7 rule is now at O/H.
If we are going to divide then allow the senior AMT his choice which side of the fence he wants to be on.
In the last week, I have heard no less than 10 AMT's ready to go to the line as they are not interested in being MRO either.
So one time window SENIORITY based Re-Alignment Bid System.
If the game is changing this much then time to re-bid the system.
Low seniority left can either go to MRO or hit the street.
On top of that, you are now without a chance of ever leaving this union. The MRO will only survive by being the majority as the "I've Got Mine" society thinking takes over unionism. I now tend to think the TWU Consitution is looking better all the time to protect us at MRO from the elitist on the Line. The more I read the luckier I feel and see what the true agenda was of the Line AMT trying to escape the undemocratic ways of the TWU. Those "undemocratic ways" appear to be the only thing saving my job at this point. Most of you believe in socialism except when it comes to treatment of the MRO worker and you are more than happy to shaft him/her to make your own personal gain. I get it now. And thank you very much for clearing that up....I needed that.
When the SCAB A&P takes on your powerful elite job and replaces you while you are on the picket line, we will then know, just as NWA proved that you were not really that great afterall. And there is no shortage of those with an A&P willing to screw the other guy for personal gain. Just as you are thinking now, they will take theirs at the expense of someone else and blame it on someone or something else just as the SCABS at NWA did.
Well now that I see the big picture let me tell you something. As a welder and a Crew Chief that is 50 yrs old, I get $560 per month more with this agreement, and I get to keep the retirement medical - Screw You Guys! I'VE GOT MINE BROTHER and will now vote YES to save my own ass from you powerful unrelenting more important Line AMT's. Unfriggin believeable that you call yourselves union men.
Good Luck I am no longer with you.
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
This is not about who works harder, line or base....
The job of an aircraft mechanic is an extremely responsible one and we should be compensated accordingly for it.
No one should get compensated for how physically demanding his/her job is. It's all about the responsibility. You know, the way the pro company folks here defend CEO pay.
If that were the case, a CEO would make minimum wage and a construction worker digging a hole all day would be rich.
Getting paid for what we do fairly is the point. Not getting paid what corporations say we should get paid.
And regional pay is the easy solution.
The job of an aircraft mechanic is an extremely responsible one and we should be compensated accordingly for it.
No one should get compensated for how physically demanding his/her job is. It's all about the responsibility. You know, the way the pro company folks here defend CEO pay.
If that were the case, a CEO would make minimum wage and a construction worker digging a hole all day would be rich.
Getting paid for what we do fairly is the point. Not getting paid what corporations say we should get paid.
And regional pay is the easy solution.
Who said anything about Superior work? I said the work, or perhaps I should have added the conditions, are different, the shifts, the Holidays, the weekends, the pressure of working an aircraft with 200 people on board waiting to leave and the relatively high cost of living where the revenue generating markets are all make the Line different from OH and there should be compensation for that. I never said that the line does Superior work, obviously specialized skills exist at the bases (which adds value to in house overhaul beyond OH and into operations) and circumstances will require that OH makes field trips to do such work that is beyond the capabilities of the line. What we need is to get doubletime back so these guys make some real money when they bail out "the line"(I prefer to think they bail out the company). I think doubletime would add more value than adding line pay. Some of the things that have transpired proved the value of in house OH in that we were able to meet some major ADs without service interruptions because we have the ability to send OH right out to the line and do them.
YES, and I believe thats what usually happens. I recall the layoff in the 90s where OH displaced many junior workers at both JFK anf LGA. Seniority should prevail.
I think you misread my post. The decision as to whether you are going to be MRO workers or Airline workers is yours to make. If you vote YES you are voting to become and compete in the MRO market, if you vote NO you are voting to remain airline workers.
Exactly, another reason why you should Vote NO. You will have the downside of the airline business but not the upside.
If you vote YES then that decision is pretty much being made for them. As the demand for line mechanics increases and OSMs move into the docks AMTs will be forced to the line. If you look at the TA theres a strong incentive to do that withut waiting for a layoff. Right now an OH mechanic can collect his Lump Sum, then put in his transfer to the line and start collect the extra line premium. He can end up getting both if he voluntarily transfers. The 6/6/2000 System protection date would probably still leave enough of a cushion where the $12500 doesnt kick in.
The decision to go MRO isnt limited in its impact to the bases.
Well the only guarantee with choosing to go MRO is that your wages will be supressed by the going rate at MROs, there is no guarantee that the headcount would rebound or even stay the same. AA might decide, as Crandall did years ago, to not build up maintenance capacity to to do maintenance on competitors aircraft and help them make money. An entry into the MRO market by AMR would only increase competition within that market and drive prices down even further. AMR may instead sit back and enjoy the benifits of in house maintenance while paying labor at MRO pay rates, a Grand Slam for the company.
Well thats your perogative. I dont know what you read but nothing in my post advocates this TA, the separations within this TA or bringing us into the MRO market and out of the Airline Business or says that we are superior to the bases. Do you feel that a guy who works nights, weekends or Holidays should get paid the same as someone who is off? What exactly are you against? The line premium? So a mechanic who works out in the snow, the cold , the rain, the wind, the heat on the hazardous ramp area should get the same as someone who works in a climate controlled building? Was it the Fox News comment that threw you off in a tangent? Dont you get a skill premium for being a welder? Arent you aware that these skill premiums are a way of offsetting future wage increases (so a 6% wage increase is really only a 5.4% increase in the total wage).You are complianing about the changes that I say a Yes vote would make then saying that you will vote YES because you get another $560/month and you think that Line guys elitists. I think this TA hurts the base more than the line, but you seem to think its OK because you are over 50, and a CC and an Welder. Enjoy your $560/month because its probably the last increase you will ever see if you vote YES and welcome to the world of TIMCO and AAR. You will be bringing us into that market at the top of scale with nowhere to go but down.
Hopeful
Veteran
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
I'm not going to answer your post with another I'M BETTER THAN YOU POST."
Just chew on this..this TA is the another step in totally eliminating both the pension and retiree medical for all.
Next contract , there will be NO retiree medical for ANYONE,,,,50 and over..
The pension will be frozen...
But as long as you get another $560.00 a month...hey ........who cares...
Good luck to you too, Boomer.....You're not getting any younger.
comatose
Senior
Jim Little is my hero. A quote from '03
Little said that by honoring last week's ratification vote, the modified deal will shorten the contract by a year and "maximize our chances for undoing concessions no one wants. Moreover, if there is a bankruptcy, we will have provisions in place protecting us from attempts to secure further concessions."
Little also said management has committed to the unions — and the four House members who helped facilitate the final talks that led to Thursday's deal — that there are no further executive compensation matters that have not been disclosed.
Seven years later, exactly whats been undone? Go ahead Jimmy, Don, and John sale away.
Little said that by honoring last week's ratification vote, the modified deal will shorten the contract by a year and "maximize our chances for undoing concessions no one wants. Moreover, if there is a bankruptcy, we will have provisions in place protecting us from attempts to secure further concessions."
Little also said management has committed to the unions — and the four House members who helped facilitate the final talks that led to Thursday's deal — that there are no further executive compensation matters that have not been disclosed.
Seven years later, exactly whats been undone? Go ahead Jimmy, Don, and John sale away.
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
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You didnt call it divide and conquer when you recieved a skill premium of $1.55 per more than the welder in 2001 now did you? But it is divide and conquer when parity is returned? I get it now. It isn't divide and conquer when there is such a surplus of A&P's and a shortage of machinist and welders that the A&P is upgraded to welder or machinist and makes $1.55 more than the guy training him. No that isnt divide and conquer at all.
This Union has been in divide and conquer mode since 1983 and this is first time I am not in the group getting the shaft.
The Line AMT's apparently favor divide and conquer only now it is called premium pay for high cost of living, working live flights, and working in the weather. Of course we all know that once the Class II stations are history most Line AMT's are working in a hangar and not on live flights 95% of the time.
You can blame me for divide and conquer all you want, if not me, you would find someone else to blame.
Go For It......"I've Got Mine Brother"
I could care less anymore what you call me or blame me for. The truth is everyone in the POS union is out for themselves just most wont admit that.
iluvaa
Veteran
- Mar 22, 2007
- 1,228
- 811
Im a yes vote also I get a $6 raise and 6% bonus check, back pay for my six dollar raise from date of signing, and my prefunding returned i figure I will get a minimum of 6 grand I GOT MINE screw the rest thats what this union tought me well and im going with it.
Mr Red
Veteran
- May 11, 2010
- 612
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I can not complain.
I sold my soul to the devil years ago so that I can provide better opportunities for our children.
Finally with them grown we will be able to leave this place.
I have a little more than 15 years to go and we will never look back when the time comes to leave this town.
Hey,guys you do not need an excuse to vote which ever way you want.
Just do not try to blame others for your decisions.
I never got mine.
I am not that freaking cheap,or shallow.
I sold my soul to the devil years ago so that I can provide better opportunities for our children.
Finally with them grown we will be able to leave this place.
I have a little more than 15 years to go and we will never look back when the time comes to leave this town.
Hey,guys you do not need an excuse to vote which ever way you want.
Just do not try to blame others for your decisions.
I never got mine.
I am not that freaking cheap,or shallow.
iluvaa
Veteran
- Mar 22, 2007
- 1,228
- 811
