TWU Jim Little: I have saved the membersd from themselves!

[Checking it Out]

So when a member violates the TWU Constitution by "unbecoming conduct", which you have proven includes excercising his/her right to change unions, you would hold a Kangaroo Court and place him/her in "Bad Standing" for three years. You strip this member of his/her right to run for office, the right to attend membership meetings, the right to vote in officer elections for a three year period, all punishment for violating the TWU Constitution.

But when Jim Little deprives ALL members in "good standing" the right to a legitimate vote on contract terms, which is a clear violation of the TWU Constitution, he "DID THE RIGHT THING"?

I hope you get the chance to tell that to a Federal Judge!

----------------​

RV4

The Members exercised their rights, Under the TWU Constitution to stop a rival from attempting to Organize. It was a tool used just like all the Lawsuits and the false Information that was used by them. It was very successful, and will be successful in the future!

The majority of the members choose not to have the rival Union by not signing any cards. But many lack the Intelegence to understand this and continue to cause disorder.

I believe Little did the right thing, and the relief everyone showed at work Friday was a good example of this.

I believe the TWU has a good arguement and like the Last Court apperance by Local 562 will prove this. But if you wish go ahead and spend your Money! It won''t be the first time you lost!

Their is a fundamental difference between the TWU and amfa. The TWU belives in representing everyone. amfa believes in only the skilled with A and P licenses. Where does that leave you!

Thanks for your Time! TWU Solidarity, 2003

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

----------------
On 4/25/2003 5:00:31 PM RV4 wrote:

----------------
On 4/25/2003 10:08:17 AM Checking it Out wrote:


RV4 Give it a break!

Little did the right thing! I give him credit and he did what was right under the circumstances!  He was not alone!

Thanks for your Time! TWU Solidarity 2003

----------------​

So when a member violates the TWU Constitution by "unbecoming conduct", which you have proven includes excercising his/her right to change unions, you would hold a Kangaroo Court and place him/her in "Bad Standing" for three years. You strip this member of his/her right to run for office, the right to attend membership meetings, the right to vote in officer elections for a three year period, all punishment for violating the TWU Constitution.

But when Jim Little deprives ALL members in "good standing" the right to a legitimate vote on contract terms, which is a clear violation of the TWU Constitution, he "DID THE RIGHT THING"?

I hope you get the chance to tell that to a Federal Judge!

----------------​

RV4(Dave),
You know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I FULLY support you(and many others), in your quest for AMFA.

After reading some of the posts from these TWU "kool aid drinkers", it''s a miricle that you.
A. hav''nt been convicted of a homicide
and
B. still have your sanity.

(seriuosly), things must be REAL interesting in "okie-ville"

NH/BB''s

 

[Buck]

----------------
On 4/26/2003 9:18:51 AM Checking it Out wrote:



Their is a fundamental difference between the TWU and amfa. The TWU belives in representing everyone. amfa believes in only the skilled with A and P licenses. Where does that leave you!

----------------​

CIO you are lying and you know it. IT is not AMFA ot the TWU who sets the craft and class. It is the NAtional Mediation Board.

13. Q: What is a craft or class?

A: Craft or class is a term used for the group of employees the applicant seeks to represent. Crafts or classes must be carrier system-wide.

14. Q: What factors are considered in determining the proper craft or class?

A: The Board considers several facts in determining a proper craft of class including the composition and relative permanency of the employee grouping along craft or class lines; the functions, duties and responsibilities of the employees; the general nature of the work performed; and the community of interest between job classifications.

15. Q: Who is eligible to vote in the election?

A: All employees working in the craft or class and who are employed as of the last day of the last payroll period prior to the receipt of the application by the NMB are eligible to vote in the election. Employees severing their employment relationship (e.g., by resignation, termination, retirement, death, or promotion) during the balloting period are normally removed from the list.

See Manual, Section 5.3 at

www.nmb.gov/representation/repman0601.html

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 4/26/2003 9:18:51 AM Checking it Out wrote:


RV4

The Members exercised their rights, Under the TWU Constitution to stop a rival from attempting to Organize. It was a tool used just like all the Lawsuits and the false Information that was used by them. It was very successful, and will be successful in the future!

The majority of the members choose not to have the rival Union by not signing any cards. But many lack the Intelegence to understand this and continue to cause disorder.

I believe Little did the right thing, and the relief everyone showed at work Friday was a good example of this.

I believe the TWU has a good arguement and like the Last Court apperance by Local 562 will prove this. But if you wish go ahead and spend your Money! It won't be the first time you lost!

Their is a fundamental difference between the TWU and amfa. The TWU belives in representing everyone. amfa believes in only the skilled with A and P licenses. Where does that leave you!

Thanks for your Time! TWU Solidarity, 2003


----------------​

So the Constitution is nothing more than a "tool" in your mind to be used to protect the "union" from it's own members desire to leave and gain a better bargaining agent?

How does member use the Constitution as a "tool" to prevent a dictator from destroying the profession by side letter of agreement without ratification?

The relief I am seeing at work, is the signing of the AMFA cards. Even the strongest TWU supporter from the past, has now become and "Informed Member". This is the final curtain call for the TWU and the dictators.

It is most interesting how you refer to the "TWU" as seperate institution from the member or another Local. At least you got one thing right. When it comes to the TWU, the "union" damn sure is something other than the members. By your own admission, the "union" uses the Constitution to "control" the thinking and actions of it's members.

Where does the TWU leave me? Well, lets just say one step closer to lowest pay and benefits package of the industry. Or "in the dust" if you prefer.

How many jobs did the Little dictator save and what was the price per head? Maybe we could all work for min. wage and zero benefits and you and the "union" could have a maintenance base in every county of every state? Jobs, Jobs, and more Jobs.

 

[MADAMT]

While I can rationalize Jim Littles thinking, or I should say what I percieve to be his thinking, I have a problem with the theory behind it. In bankruptcy the company could concievably look to close some bases and downsize the airline. Yes some people would be impacted and be Layed off.
But I feel the job of the Union is not to provide jobs, a Union Job is to, and I quote from the TWUs'' own Constitution " To establish through collective bargaining adequate wage standards and retirement benefits, shorter hours of work and improvements in the conditions of employment for the workers in the industry."
No where in their stated objective does it state that their objective is to ptotect jobs. By allowing itself to be put in this position, it has assumed the role that typically reserved for Goverments and Corporations. By accepting the assumption that bankruptcy would be worse we are assuming that closure of bases and lay offs will not occur. Whats worse, I can not say for all, but the choices seem obivious.

Go to bankruptcy and allow the bases to close and lay offs to occur. The pay cuts and benefits reductions could not be much worse that what we are now enduing now. With the possibility that they would not be as severe.

Or allow 14,000 AMTS and related to suffer so that 3,000 keep their jobs.

I can not and will not speak foir everyone but I feel that Unionism is doing what is better for the greater good, to protect the wages and benefits that have been fought for over the past 50 years.


To allow the negation of what some have fought for is wrong and should not occur. If a man is layed off at least the possibilty remains that he will return to well paying job with decent benefits and a better life style, if I were layed off, sure I would struggle but I would find alternate means to supplement my income and provide for my family. In this current senario I will have to find that alternate means to support my family anyway.

Just my opinion take it for what its worth, all should not suffer to protect the jobs of a few in relation the size of the complete work force.

 

[Checking it Out]

Madamt and RV4, both your theories do not hold water! The TWU has successfully Negotiated shorter terms on the new agreements with no change in our Scope Clause.

United and NW are closing Maintenance Bases, Farming out Heavy Maint. and reducing Employees! United has a T/A with the same Wages and Laying off back too 1990. (6000 jobs). NW will soon have lower wages after laying off 4500 AMT''s with 1000 more coming.

Tell us how this is better for these Individuals? I do not see the Price per head difference after comparing all 3 proposals?

Layoffs is not the answer! Change is! I believe we need to bring more work in house and work smarter!

Thanks for Your Time! TWU Solidarity 2003!

 

[MADAMT]

To Answer your first statement, yes the term is shorter by 8 months, but if you are hanging your hat on the 2006 section six openers, read it carefully and completly. The contract states that they can be opened but the amendable date is still April 2008, so either party can file openers but the date stays in effect till 2008. Do you really think the company will open early in 2006 and give up the savings they achieved in this agreement?Are you relying on their sense of fair play and their benevolance?This Company has shown nothing but contempt for its work force and Carty going did not stave that mindset. Arpy and the rest were cognicent of what was happening and endorsed it.

As for the United agreement, look at what was given up, other than pay and the base closing the rest has stayed the same. Contracting out ratio is the same before and after, the work rules in regard to Holidays sicktime and such stayed the same.

Its not that at AA the pay was decreased, that is a realization that would have occured in or out ok BK, its the other benefits that have been impacted. If we just look at the pay we are delusional and niave, the loss of holidays and benefits drives up the cost per head, you need to look at the total package not just the 17.5 % pay cut.
At AA the contracting out ratio was not even discussed we traded Monies for nothing except the illusion of keeping jobs.

I live in the northeast, have a family of 4 to support and the cost of living here is high, in either senario I am forced to go out and take on a second job. I worked two full time jobs for 11 years and finally gave it up with the last contract, by accepting this proposal and the totality of the complete package when all is considered is unacceptable.

Sure I might have to supplement my income again, but not to the entent I must now.


Each and everyone one of us have different circumstances and agendas and must make decisons based on that. For me accepting this proposal was wrong and goes aganist what Unionism means.

You speak of change, what change elaborate on this please.

 

[RV4]

----------------
On 4/26/2003 1:00:25 PM Checking it Out wrote:


Madamt and RV4, both your theories do not hold water! The TWU has successfully Negotiated shorter terms on the new agreements with no change in our Scope Clause.

United and NW are closing Maintenance Bases, Farming out Heavy Maint. and reducing Employees! United has a T/A with the same Wages and Laying off back too 1990. (6000 jobs). NW will soon have lower wages after laying off 4500 AMT's with 1000 more coming.

Tell us how this is better for these Individuals? I do not see the Price per head difference after comparing all 3 proposals?

Layoffs is not the answer! Change is! I believe we need to bring more work in house and work smarter!

Thanks for Your Time! TWU Solidarity 2003!

----------------​

Why would AA seek a change in the TWU Scope Clause? They outsource everything they want now.

You are so desperate for facts to defend your ILC Industry Leading Concession you are using United which is not voted on yet, or do you have information that their so-called union leadership is going to approve without a credible vote like yours did?

Uniteds T/A does NOT have OSM payrates, In fact, no other airline has the OSM payrate, Uniteds T/A does NOT have vacation reduction. Uniteds T/A does have Holiday removal, Uniteds T/A does NOT have 50% Sick Leave pay, Uniteds T/A does not strip members of License Pay.

And Northwest has nothing to vote on. Of course now that your ILC is in place, the pressure is on everyone else in the industry to concede also. Thus the TERM:

TWU
INDUSTTRY LEADING CONCESSIONS

When you say "work smarter" do you mean fire union officers who have someone else clock them in when they fail to show for work? Do mean get a members job back who sleeps on the job? Do you mean get the Safety Officer his job after being caught looking at Porn on company time and computers? Do you mean get a union representatives job back when he sells AA stolen property on E-Bay?

Let's POLL the members with credible vote.

"DO YOU FAVOR HIGHER PAY AND BENEFITS OR MORE JOBS"?

I know which would win!

Tell me something "Checking it Out" what would you honestly be saying right now if it was AMFA at Northwest who just signed off on an agreement equal to the TWU's without a credible vote of the membership? And as a result, you were forced into a concession by virtue of such an act by a union leader.

Would you say Delle-Femine "did the right thing"? Or would you and the "informer" slam AMFA into history? Funny thing is, TWU led the industry, the cards are being signed, and your leadership has lost so much credibility, your anti-AMFA lies are not going to save you anymore.

 

[MADAMT]

More to the point.How does bringing in more work serve for the betterment of the workers? Does this pay them more or raise their standard of living? No it does not, does this increase the dues paying members for the International, Yes. Does this increase the TWUs'' power base politically, Yes. Does any of this make the living standards of the worker better, NO. The Objective from the TWU Constitutions clearly states and I will not paraphase it in any way.
[SIZE= 10pt]Article II .Objects, Sub. (B)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 10pt]To establish through collective bargaining adequate wage standards and retirement benefits, shorter hours of work and improvements in the conditions of employment for the workers in the industry[/SIZE]
Does it state in lieu of raising the standard of living for our members we shall create jobs? No where in the Constitution does it bring to light that the creation of jobs are the priority.
Unions and people have literally shed their blood to have their standard of living raise, to be on equal footing with mamagement, no matter what the circumstances. Read your labor history no fight was ever fought to insure jobs, the fight was to be well paid for those jobs, to have a sense of entitlement.


More importantly the Constitution also states.


[SIZE= 10pt]Article XXIV Collective Bargaining and Contracts. Section2[/SIZE][SIZE= 10pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 10pt]Any proposed agreement shall be subject to ratification by the members covered by such agreement.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 10pt]Section 5[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 10pt]No officer, member, representative or agent of the International Union or of any Local Union or of any subordinate body of the International Union shall have the power or authority to counsel, cause, initiate, participate in or ratify any action which constitutes a breach of any collective bargaining contract duly entered into. [/SIZE]
Have these edicts been followed? Has the membership itself suspended or abridged the Constitution? We can not ignore the stipulations set forth because it is convient to do so, we fight wars in other countries to prevent that from happening. We consider it unjust for peoples rights abroad to be trampled like trash underfoot, but we should allow it to happen here, because its convient?

 

[Buck]

So what is the Farmout Percentage at American Airlines under the SCOPE CLAUSE? CIO show some facts, post some documentation.

 

[RV4]

It appears to me that each employee traded:

4.5 % in Pay (Difference at United) **Minus 17.5% AA vs. Minus 13% UAL**
5 Paid Holidays (Not at United)
5 Vacation days (Not at United)
50% Sick Leave Pay (Not at United)
7 Sick Days per Year from the Bank (Not at United)
7 Day Labor Loans (Not at United)
Unlimited Weekend Coverage 4/10s (Weekend Coverage Only Limted in 5 Day Schedules)
Overtime Pay 2.5X (Not at United)
Loss of Shift Premium (Not at United)
Loss of Longevity Pay (Not at United)

Checking it Out - Feel Free to Prove the above facts "Dont Hold Water"?

In exchange for 3000 Jobs??? What is the dollar value of each head saved? I do not know the dollar value per head but I do know the price. We just sacrificed the entire profession, and it was too damn expensive per head.

When I look at a United Employees cost for medical per paycheck, Im find that I am already paying what their concession has and now we will be paying even more.

Checking it Out IS WRONG, there is a tremendous difference in the concession packages and ours is BY FAR WORSE!

At least they get to vote. Instead we have a dictator that saved us from ourselves.

AND UNITED IS IN BANKRUPTCY FOR CHRIST SAKE! SHOW ME WHERE THEY HAVE IT WORSE?

 

[Boomer]

Checking it Out
Member

Total Posts: 16
Last Post: 4/26/2003
Member Since: 4/3/2003
Member #2067

Madamt and RV4, both your theories do not hold water! The TWU has successfully Negotiated shorter terms on the new agreements with no change in our Scope Clause.

United and NW are closing Maintenance Bases, Farming out Heavy Maint. and reducing Employees! United has a T/A with the same Wages and Laying off back too 1990. (6000 jobs). NW will soon have lower wages after laying off 4500 AMT's with 1000 more coming.

Tell us how this is better for these Individuals? I do not see the Price per head difference after comparing all 3 proposals?

Layoffs is not the answer! Change is! I believe we need to bring more work in house and work smarter!

Thanks for Your Time! TWU Solidarity 2003!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

CIO,
You are either Ignorant or a Liar.

First: The only body legally allowed to negotiate the terms for wages, hours and working conditions is the Maintenance & Related Negotiating Team. At the time that Little agreed to the amended conditions, there was no quorum present. In fact, the members of the Maintenance & Related Negotiating Team were in their home bases and were not contacted nor did they agree to the terms before us.

Second: The Current Scope Clause allows 49.99% of all Maintenance Performed under the Base, Line and Cross Service Agreements to be outsourced. Further, the current agreement states that the current workload is not guaranteed.

Third: the position of the Maintenance Local Presidents was and has been that the Company should lay off so that the jobs remaining will be worth more when those who are laid off are returned. In fact, if you go to the Websters' Dictionary, you will find:

Main Entry: labor union
Function: noun
Date: 1866
: an organization of workers formed for the purpose of advancing its members' interests in respect to wages, benefits, and working conditions
[url="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary"]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary[/URL]

 

[RV4]

I believe "Chekcing it Out", has checked out of this conversation.

It is normal for the TWU supporter to find himself unable to answer questions that are in direct conflict with the cultiist views. Maybe when the "union" hall opens again, he will get some moral support from the "union". Him and the rest of the lazy deadbeats will be at the hall bright and early Monday while the rest of us pull their load in the work groups.

If this concession stands the test of Federal Judges, it will go down in history as the largest consensual giveback, without a credible vote of the members in organized labor history.

I am not really surprised that the Bus Driver Union would be responsible and the volunteer.

We should still be thankful to the Northwest Airline AMFA members, they allowed us to make a decent wage for nearly two years before the company and the company unions of American Airlines wet the bed and destroyed everything that had been gained.

 

[aapitbull]

----------------
On 4/27/2003 645 AM RV4 wrote:


I believe "Chekcing it Out", has checked out of this conversation.

It is normal for the TWU supporter to find himself unable to answer questions that are in direct conflict with the cultiist views. Maybe when the "union" hall opens again, he will get some moral support from the "union". Him and the rest of the lazy deadbeats will be at the hall bright and early Monday while the rest of us pull their load in the work groups.



----------------​

I am sure he will be back Monday with the fresh off the press lies and misrepresentations!!!

Now repeat after me AMFA bad twu good Don Carty bad Jim little good O.V. Dell-Femine bad Sonny Hall good now repeat that three times and all will be well!!! I feel better already.

 

[RV4]

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On 4/27/2003 4:56:56 PM Checking it Out wrote:




RV4 You are attempting to decieve!
AA 17.5% = Base Pay
UA 13% = Total Pay


The Rest equals 2 Bases unlimited farmout of Heavy Work and 6000 Jobs and if they reject the T/A no Union representation!

We are still making more than the average AMT in the USA
Average Pay is $25.50 per Hour with 401k Retirement!

Full pay to the last day! Is this your Slogan? Pathetic it is!

I Voted! Apparently you did not!

BK is definitly worse! Thank goodness we have the Smarts not to listened to the few like UA AMT's did! Just think if it was not for amfa! UA would have better pay and more jobs!


TWU Solidarity 2003!





----------------​

I notice you completely disregard these items:

5 Paid Holidays (Not at United)
5 Vacation days (Not at United)
50% Sick Leave Pay (Not at United)
7 Sick Days per Year from the Bank (Not at United)
7 Day Labor Loans (Not at United)
Unlimited Weekend Coverage 4/10s (Weekend Coverage Only Limted in 5 Day Schedules)
Overtime Pay 2.5X (Not at United)
Loss of Shift Premium (Not at United)
Loss of Longevity Pay (Not at United)


Does the TWU faithful believe these are not $$$ from your pocket?

Prove that BK is worse? Prove that we are not going there anyway?

We didn't have smarts! We had FEAR and we had deception by management and dictatorship by union. And you are here to tell us how great that experience was?

I fear this battle over Tulsa and their ignorance is NOT over. We are not participating in the solution, we are promoting the problem. And for this we will likely pay. The stubborn ignorance will get us to the street faster than any Judge would have. GO ahead, sacrifice others to save a few, watch how the others react.

And you know what? When you get what is coming, and you deserve, I wont be sympathetic.