TWU negotiations.........what?

[strikeforce]

I will agree with all of your statements but I think you are making the same mistake that a lot of guys have made over the past few years. You ignore the fact that no other airline is paying 10,000 mechanics $38 an hour, because they outsouce a bunch. The question I asked our local cowboy president in an email, and I believe you as well in a past post, is "what are our maintenance costs per asm compared to other airlines?" I never got an answer. I realize that we insource 25% of our OH maintenance with OSMs but I still think my question is valid. If you or the "restore and more" gang don't know that number then do you really think that comparing only wage and benefits is a proper way to negotiate? I think this experience has shown us that it hasn't been.
If this union can't even do a little research and see how compare in real numbers that matter instead of negotiating on emotion, then it is no wonder why we are where we are as a group.

maybe that should have been the union's first request for information? You're absolutely correct, and it probably doesn't take a calculator to figure out that 10K mechanics making $38/hr plus benefits CANNOT compete against the Timco's or AAR's. Someone needs to explain to ALL the cowboys in Tulsa that 5K OSM's making $23/hr will be able to compete against those MRO's. The heart of the problem is the majority status of TUL. They will never agree to slash their pay down to $23/hr with the Line making $33/hr. You have to look at your competitors, not your brothers! You want to bump the Line, be my guest, and I guess my choice will either be working in TUL as an OSM making $23/hr or finding other employment. Why is it so difficult to comprehend?

 

[strikeforce]

How do you define "Artificially High"?
Are you aware that the average hourly top rate for mechanics is currently over $38/hr, not counting UPS or Fed Ex?
AA is only paying $33 and looking to slash that another 50 cents.
Are you aware that most mechanics in our industry get 10 holidays at 2.5x? That translates into 120 hours of extra pay if worked.
AA only pays 5 at 1.5 x, the least and lowest in the industry, we get 100 hours less pay than most of our peers working the Holidays. That comes out to $3800 less for us than our peers even if we were paid the same, which we are not.
Are you aware that we get a weeks less vacation than the rest of the industry for the first 30 years of our careers?
Are you aware that we are at the bottom in nearly every form of compensation?

According to you, expecting to get what everyone else gets for doing the same work is an "Artificially high" expectation.

The fact is that AA ran into BK with over $4 billion in cash. We could not stop AA from burning cash over the last 8 years. Whether it was automatically shiping parts around the system just for the heck of it (around 70% of the parts they ship AOG are returned unused, they would automatically ship parts back to the base if they were not used within a certain timeframe, spend $20 to ship 30 cents worth of washers for no reason other than they were not used within the timeframe they allotted, ship expendables such as windshield wipers back to the base out of line stations then lose trips due to having no wipers in stock) or any of the other countless expenditures they indulged in.

The fact is we do our jobs as well as any mechanics in the industry but we are the worst as far as compensation. Who has "Artificial expectations", us, or management? The biggest threat to the financial well being of A&P mechanics in this industry is not foreign maintenence, its American Airlines.

Unfortunately Bob you're wrong. American Airlines is a business, and it's sole purpose, whether WE like it or not, is to appease the shareholders. And, they haven't done a good job doing that. In the eyes of screwed over employees the company has been fiscally irresponsible. I'm a dues paying member of the union, and based on the number of years working under concessionary agreements....this union has done an extremely POOR job of protecting my best interests, which happen to be PAY, BENEFITS, and PENSION. American Airlines will do whatever is necessary to bamboozle, trick, undermine, and play games with labor to achieve their goals. I would expect the union to do the same, but labor hasn't because the TWU INTL is NOT interested in playing those games. When an INTL officer is making over 200K, and his pay is NOT tied to any concessionary contracts, it's very easy to look the other way when it's time to fight the golden goose. On the other hand, I would expect ALL the local presidents to be on the same page, especially when YOUR pay is tied to concessionary deals. Instead, the local presidents try and undermine each other by making side deals or using the roll call vote, while the INTL is also making side deals in an elevator to undermine everyone's efforts.

Let me just say this, "You guys better get your act TOGETHER because American Airlines is out to Destroy the AMT profession." The MRO's are here in our backyard and they're looking to take over the house. What are YOU going to do BOB????

 

[Birdman]

You're absolutely correct, and it probably doesn't take a calculator to figure out that 10K mechanics making $38/hr plus benefits CANNOT compete against the Timco's or AAR's. Someone needs to explain to ALL the cowboys in Tulsa that 5K OSM's making $23/hr will be able to compete against those MRO's. The heart of the problem is the majority status of TUL.

In a few years there could possibly be thousands less AMT's making $32.20 an hour, the prevailing wage in TULE, and hundreds more OSM's making $22.02 an hour which puts our competitors at an even larger disadvantage. TULE will likely also lose majority status. Why is it you think we must compete with MRO's and not other airlines?

 

[amt66]

Unfortunately Bob you're wrong. American Airlines is a business, and it's sole purpose, whether WE like it or not, is to appease the shareholders. And, they haven't done a good job doing that. In the eyes of screwed over employees the company has been fiscally irresponsible. I'm a dues paying member of the union, and based on the number of years working under concessionary agreements....this union has done an extremely POOR job of protecting my best interests, which happen to be PAY, BENEFITS, and PENSION. American Airlines will do whatever is necessary to bamboozle, trick, undermine, and play games with labor to achieve their goals. I would expect the union to do the same, but labor hasn't because the TWU INTL is NOT interested in playing those games. When an INTL officer is making over 200K, and his pay is NOT tied to any concessionary contracts, it's very easy to look the other way when it's time to fight the golden goose. On the other hand, I would expect ALL the local presidents to be on the same page, especially when YOUR pay is tied to concessionary deals. Instead, the local presidents try and undermine each other by making side deals or using the roll call vote, while the INTL is also making side deals in an elevator to undermine everyone's efforts.

Let me just say this, "You guys better get your act TOGETHER because American Airlines is out to Destroy the AMT profession." The MRO's are here in our backyard and they're looking to take over the house. What are YOU going to do BOB????

Once this is over our first priority is to get rid of the twu!! It makes me sick to see the salaried these people are making on our backs!!! I have always felt the twu has been in bed with the company.. Tiime to start fresh..

 

[737823]

Once this is over our first priority is to get rid of the twu!! It makes me sick to see the salaried these people are making on our backs!!! I have always felt the twu has been in bed with the company.. Tiime to start fresh..

Are you saying your work group would be better with no representation than the TWU?

Josh

 

[AA89]

In a few years there could possibly be thousands less AMT's making $32.20 an hour, the prevailing wage in TULE, and hundreds more OSM's making $22.02 an hour which puts our competitors at an even larger disadvantage. TULE will likely also lose majority status. Why is it you think we must compete with MRO's and not other airlines?

I know you aren't asking me but I believe that we are competing against both. As a union that represents OH and Line maint we compete against other airlines that mostly outsource their OH. So our OH costs better be competetive with the other airlines overhaul costs (MRO's) or the line guys would have to agree to be paid a lot less than the competition for the companiy's overall maintenance costs to be competetive.
This is of course assuming that our OH costs are considerably more than that of the other airlines MRO costs, which we don't know. That was the point of my original post to Bob Owens.

 

[Buck]

I know you aren't asking me but I believe that we are competing against both. As a union that represents OH and Line maint we compete against other airlines that mostly outsource their OH. So our OH costs better be competetive with the other airlines overhaul costs (MRO's) or the line guys would have to agree to be paid a lot less than the competition for the companiy's overall maintenance costs to be competetive.
This is of course assuming that our OH costs are considerably more than that of the other airlines MRO costs, which we don't know. That was the point of my original post to Bob Owens.

I need to understand something that you touched on. The issue of competing. Not looking for a fight, please explain how our line mechanics compete against other airlines line mechanics? I get the part of how overall maintenance competes, however if you were able to separate from TUL, where does the competitiveness begin and end?

 

[amt66]

Are you saying your work group would be better with no representation than the TWU?

Josh

I'm saying get rid of the twu and give another union a chance to get some of the things we have lost.

 

[Buck]

I'm saying get rid of the twu and give another union a chance to get some of the things we have lost.

I am with you, who do you suggest the mechanics should try?

 

[amt66]

I need to understand something that you touched on. The issue of competing. Not looking for a fight, please explain how our line mechanics compete against other airlines line mechanics? I get the part of how overall maintenance competes, however if you were able to separate from TUL, where does the competitiveness begin and end?

I don't understand why you always being up line maint when you don't like what you hear? I've never heard the company say our line maint cost have to be competitive on the other hand I hear it all the time with overhaul! It's time you realize the company doesn't want a&ps working on their aircraft at 33 when everyone else does it for 23. On top of the wage difference you guys refused to give up your weekends off. Now your going to have to work the line and work weekends.

 

[AA89]

I need to understand something that you touched on. The issue of competing. Not looking for a fight, please explain how our line mechanics compete against other airlines line mechanics? I get the part of how overall maintenance competes, however if you were able to separate from TUL, where does the competitiveness begin and end?

I don't think the company compares line costs at this point. They only compare OH costs because that is what the other carriers outsource mostly. At some point I believe the Line wages/benefits at the major carriers will have to come closer.
My longterm prediction is that all the industry needs is another recession and another airline or 2 in bankruptcy. If those airlines are successful in contracting out Line maintenance they will do it. The rest will follow. The blueprint is right in front of us now.

 

[Buck]

I don't understand why you always being up line maint when you don't like what you hear? I've never heard the company say our line maint cost have to be competitive on the other hand I hear it all the time with overhaul! It's time you realize the company doesn't want a&ps working on their aircraft at 33 when everyone else does it for 23. On top of the wage difference you guys refused to give up your weekends off. Now your going to have to work the line and work weekends.

I did not begin the "beating up" line maintenance until some of those at the line began bashing overhaul. It does not matter to me that the line is paid more than overhaul. It is the TWU, especially the international on behalf of Local 514, that continues the division. I completely understand the need for market forces, that is a basic plank of capitalism.

I have always understood that the company is willing to compsensate the line at those market rates and that they have a need to meet other overhaul facilities at that market rate.

As for my weekends off, I cannot remember when I had a weekend day off. That doesn't mean your statement is wrong. There are many in TUL that have never worked anything but day shift or weekends. When the terms of the Term Sheet are "negotiated ", toucan be assured that their lifestyle will change. I believe that these are the no voters for union transformation.

No I will not have to work the line, however I will be susceptible to the "negotiated " benefits of the bankruptcy. There will be those in overhaul that will find their way to the line and on the line that find their way to overhaul. That is very unnecessary if the staffing at least at the Class I stations is neutral. The "virtual bump" protects the company from churn, be leaves no wiggle room for the employees.

We need to get by this nonsensical feud between the line and overhaul and remember that, like today's politics, that replacement is imperative.

 

[amt66]

I did not begin the "beating up" line maintenance until some of those at the line began bashing overhaul. It does not matter to me that the line is paid more than overhaul. It is the TWU, especially the international on behalf of Local 514, that continues the division. I completely understand the need for market forces, that is a basic plank of capitalism.

I have always understood that the company is willing to compsensate the line at those market rates and that they have a need to meet other overhaul facilities at that market rate.

As for my weekends off, I cannot remember when I had a weekend day off. That doesn't mean your statement is wrong. There are many in TUL that have never worked anything but day shift or weekends. When the terms of the Term Sheet are "negotiated ", toucan be assured that their lifestyle will change. I believe that these are the no voters for union transformation.

No I will not have to work the line, however I will be susceptible to the "negotiated " benefits of the bankruptcy. There will be those in overhaul that will find their way to the line and on the line that find their way to overhaul. That is very unnecessary if the staffing at least at the Class I stations is neutral. The "virtual bump" protects the company from churn, be leaves no wiggle room for the employees.

We need to get by this nonsensical feud between the line and overhaul and remember that, like today's politics, that replacement is imperative.

Agreed! Btw I used to work in tul . Having come from pan am in the early 90s I remembered when I first started working in tul and marveled how great it was . AA has a great set up there and it's a shame they don't realize that.... No matter where they send there planes in the future they won't get the quality they get inhouse! They will pay more for an inferior product watch and see! Tul will be receiving a lot more drop ins

 

[Buck]

Latest rumor out of negotiations is an increase of 40% OSM in TUL in both shops and docks to save jobs, along with 7 day coverage for keeping 767 and 777 in house and supported by Local 514 and TWU International.

 

[Birdman]

In a few years months there could possibly be thousands less AMT's making $32.20 an hour, the prevailing wage in TULE, and hundreds thousands more OSM's making $22.02 an hour which puts our competitors at an even larger disadvantage. TULE will likely also may not lose majority status. Why is it you think we must compete with MRO's and not other airlines?

Revised!

Latest rumor out of negotiations is an increase of 40% OSM in TUL in both shops and docks to save jobs, along with 7 day coverage for keeping 767 and 777 in house and supported by Local 514 and TWU International.

If I become an OSM employment in Oklahoma City will become very attractive.