Its All The Presidents Fault

[Rusty]

AMFA is a process of having a union that gives the membership control over their union. There is no-one that can justify how being a true democratic union is worse than being a union that operates in a dictatorship fashion. To claim AMFA is a failure is saying we cannot handle unionism ourselves. This validates the fallacy the TWU needs to dictate every aspect of our union. AMFA is nothing more or less than what we the 'membership' make it.

Empower the membership, vote AMFA.

 

[Raptor]

AMFA is nothing more or less than what we the 'membership' make it.

I will agree with that. Well said.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have said it before and I will say it again. . .Your opinion (and that of Chuck and Steve's in this situation) mean absolutely NOTHING to me!!!!

Okay, then why did you reply? And why do you often direct questions to me?

You are one-sided and biased in EVERYTHING you post.

And what do you consider yourself?

Just because you say it does NOT make it so Bob.

It does to me. Do you knowingly say things that you dont believe to be so?

You are always crying for a response to your rhetoric and when you do get responses they are not what you want to hear!!! Get over it man.

Crying? Hardly, merely commenting, usually about how you complain in bold colored letters when you dont get an imediate response and then you simply dont comment or reply when questions are posed to you.

There are 2 sides to every story and yours is not always the correct side.

Ok. Tell us your side.

You again have NO solid evidence, or should I say neutral source to cooraberate (sp) your "theory".

Sure I do. Just read the court cases and compare that to what Little and Sonny say to the members.

I will be the first to admit I was wrong but I need solid proof, just as you would want, to make any type of case for or against something.

So when you dont reply should we take that as an admission that you are wrong or our side is right?

Both sides have their goods and bads Bob.

OK, tell me AMFAs goods (since you are so open minded) and tell me the TWUs bads.

Don't preach to me about something that you don't have the correct knowledge or proof of.

Thats your opinion.


Bob's heresay has holes in it.

Ok, what are they?

Give me solid, credible sources and then I will take what you have to say seriously.


Like I said all you have to do is read through those court cases.

Now, go ahead, start another thread and cry and complain about how I don't respond to what you have to say.

No thats your style. I'm satisfied continuing on this topic.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob wrote;
On Tuesday, International Reps Jim Little, Gary Yingst and Robert Gless treated the Executive Board of local 562 to an expensive dinner.

I see a touch of concern! You weren't aske to attend! I believe you are missing your position!

Bob, get over it! Your conspiracy theories have no merit! The TWU represents the members better than amfa or agw could only dream about! Organizing is easy! Representing as, you are full aware of, is a different story! That is why you took the easy road and you were removed for just cause!

You, dave, gary and many of the others will never be happy! As soon as adversity takes over, you all will be the first to jump ship!

Another self contradicting intellectual marvel from CIO.

Your moronic posts have done more harm to the TWU and have aided the AMFA drive more than anything I could ever do.

Keep up the good work. When the member considers that yours is the type of mentality that they are putting their faith in with the TWU they will surely vote AMFA.

 

[Fridays are Free]

All unionized employees have two contracts. The first contract is their union constitution. The second contract is with the company for wages and benefits.

The union constitution is the contract between the membership and the leaders of the organization. The union constitution is the foundation of our economic house, on which the second contract of wages and benefits are built upon.

Local 562 proved that the TWU constitution is a flawed, unstable and shifting foundation.

The TWU international officers (non-elected by the membership) have used the membership for their gain.

We will never be able to restore the economic house of wages and benefits until we replace the foundation. It must be a foundation built on the rock of empowering the membership and not on the shifting sands of TWU international deal cutting.

 

[Checking it Out]

So, do you have specific changes in mind? Have you gone down to the union hall to get involved and write up specific changes that you feel need to be done?

I agree with the issue in General! And I also feel divide and conguer is not the avenue to take! Involvement is the key! Nothing will change unless the members choose to change the level of participation! Looking elsewhere does not accomplish this!

 

[Checking it Out]

Actually Bob, my faith and the truth will prevail! Strong leadership here in Tulsa has shown it works! Destroying the members by false premises is the key to amfa's success! Go look at the last numbers of amfa's last elections for national officers and you will see the destruction amfa causes! You, of all people know how it works!

Right to work and Amfa go hand in hand! These are the two favorite entities for companies! Keep it up! We all will be following the avenue NW and United are taking!

 

[Bob Owens]

So, do you have specific changes in mind?

Of course he does, AMFA.

Have you gone down to the union hall to get involved and write up specific changes that you feel need to be done?


And what good will that do? What do you mean by getting involved? You guys love that phrase dont you? You think it absolves you of guilt. Well I was "involved" but since I was not doing what the International wanted, and doing exactly what my members wanted, they removed me.

If he is from Tulsa he will be ruled "out of order" and even if his local accepts his proposals most of the problems lie with the International, and members have no direct say in the International. As your own J7915 stated, the TWU structure is similar to that of Corporate America. How fitting!


I agree with the issue in General! And I also feel divide and conguer is not the avenue to take! Involvement is the key! Nothing will change unless the members choose to change the level of participation! Looking elsewhere does not accomplish this!

Be specific. What exactly do you want the members to do? And tell us how those specific actions will "change" things. And since you are defending the concessions and all the concessions that the TWU has imposed upon us over the last twenty years then why are you even admitting that we need change? On the one hand you are saying that the TWU is great and they have done a great job but within the asame breath you are saying to get involved to make change happen. Could it be that you feel that it is the member that should change, that they should willingly embrace concessions in order to help the TWU get more members?

As far as divide an conquer do you mean like "We in Tulsa are the majority and everyone else should just sit back, shut up, and accept what we dictate"?

Actually Bob, my faith and the truth will prevail!

How faithful are you when you profess your faith from anomonimity?

Strong leadership here in Tulsa has shown it works!

Does it? I'm sure that the membership is reassured whenever they listen to Randy McDonald. Either way, the members will decide in a few months.

Destroying the members by false premises is the key to amfa's success! Go look at the last numbers of amfa's last elections for national officers and you will see the destruction amfa causes! You, of all people know how it works!

What are you talking about?

Right to work and Amfa go hand in hand!

Oh really and what exactly does Right To Work promote?

Doesnt the labor movement call it "Right to work for less"? Isnt that what the TWU promotes?

Doesnt the Right to Work movement praise Corporatecstyle "democracy", just like the TWU does by stucturing themselves the same way? Just ask j7915 to fill you in on that one.

In fact when it comes to workers and the conditions they work under the only thing that the two organizations dissagree on is compulsory dues!

These are the two favorite entities for companies!

Then why is the copmpany so cozy with the TWU? Why does the TWU flag fly right next to the company flag in Tulsa? Why is the company financially supporting the TWU by paying officers wages while on UB to the tune of $3 million a year? The fact is that this company welcomes the TWU because they are known to be a 'docile" union. Didnt AMR even accept the TWU as the representative of many of their employees without a vote? Why would a company do this? Because a lapdog union is better than no union for the company.

Once a union is in place it is difficult for the members to oust that union in favor of a more militant union. It is even more difficult to change unions than it is to get a union put in place for the first time.

Once they get a union like the TWU in place it allows the company to treat its employees even worse than a non-union company. One example is the fact that TWU represented workers have as little as one week of vacation, whereas even most nonunion workers get at least two weeks vacation. In the meantime the union takes the blame, but since they are unaccountable they just spin the blame back on the members ('you need to get involved") instead of changing their ways. I

Keep it up! We all will be following the avenue NW and United are taking!

Is that all you have? Threats? Isnt that the same threat that RTW makes? That union labor is driving all the jobs out of America? That we need to work for less? Hence the label "Right to work for less"?

Our costs per hour before concessions were less than their costs per hour after concessions.

How come you left out USAIR which is now looking at their third round of concessions under the great AFL-CIO umbrella? They laid off more of a percentage of their workers force plus still took concessions. However even with two rounds of concessions in place, bankruptcy, and the threat of once again entering bankruptcy, they still get more than we do. By the way dont you think that instead of just counting layoffs we should also count lost jobs? How many people have retired or left and have not been replaced? If we had 18,000 mechanics as you claim, but now there is only a total of 13000 still working doesnt that really mean that we lost 5000 jobs even if only half of those job losses are due to a layoff? We know that the company is not replacing workers as they leave and that many older workers are in effect being forced to leave because of the four best years pension formula. The longer these guys stay, the less pension they get.

 

[Johnny Lunchbox]

I will agree with that. Well said.

You got to be kidding yourself Raptor. If AMFA would happen to prevail at AA you really expect to witness a revelation of superior unionship? What you'll witness is Delle disappearing and heading to the next raid, ask the boys at NWA that are still there. I can't wait to get told "you're out of order" at an AMFA meeting, cause it won't happen right? Or be told.."We did the best we could with what we had to work with"..we'll never hear that...right? There will never be an empty seat at the monthly meetings, and we will gladly accept furloughs in order to preserve the wages of those senior to us...God bless us, we're great.

AMFA is nothing more or less than what we the 'membership' make it.

If AMFA is nothing more than what the membership makes it, then what will change besides the name on the door? Democracy?...yeah right...we've already witnessed that with the loans of Stewart's court action...we voted on that one right? Only $18/member, great rebuttal, I don't care if it was $.01/member...

Will Delle remember there was a vote?...my money says he'll keep raiding AA 2 years even if AMFA would attain BA with this vote.

 

[Bob Owens]

I will agree with that. Well said.

You got to be kidding yourself Raptor. If AMFA would happen to prevail at AA you really expect to witness a revelation of superior unionship? What you'll witness is Delle disappearing and heading to the next raid, ask the boys at NWA that are still there. I can't wait to get told "you're out of order" at an AMFA meeting, cause it won't happen right? Or be told.."We did the best we could with what we had to work with"..we'll never hear that...right? There will never be an empty seat at the monthly meetings, and we will gladly accept furloughs in order to preserve the wages of those senior to us...God bless us, we're great.



If AMFA is nothing more than what the membership makes it, then what will change besides the name on the door? Democracy?...yeah right...we've already witnessed that with the loans of Stewart's court action...we voted on that one right? Only $18/member, great rebuttal, I don't care if it was $.01/member...

Will Delle remember there was a vote?...my money says he'll keep raiding AA 2 years even if AMFA would attain BA with this vote.

When was the last time that Jim Little or Sonny Hall faced a vote of the membership?

Where is the article on recall in the TWU Constitution?

The fact is that there is no accountability with the TWU other than the election that we will have this Summer. The last time there was an election like this was 1946.

So will the members change? Probably not. But who says they have to change? Does poor attendance at monthly meeting cause poor contracts? Doubtful.

The fact is this blaming the members excuse is pretty much worn out. Its not the members fault, its the Internationals fault. Every contract that was passed was passed with the recomendation of the International. I only recall one time when the International told the members to reject a contract, and it was. So if the members are following the directives of the International then how can the International then turn around and blame the members?

 

[Raptor]

You got to be kidding yourself Raptor. If AMFA would happen to prevail at AA you really expect to witness a revelation of superior unionship? What you'll witness is Delle disappearing and heading to the next raid, ask the boys at NWA that are still there. I can't wait to get told "you're out of order" at an AMFA meeting, cause it won't happen right? Or be told.."We did the best we could with what we had to work with"..we'll never hear that...right? There will never be an empty seat at the monthly meetings, and we will gladly accept furloughs in order to preserve the wages of those senior to us...God bless us, we're great.

Johnny no Union is perfect and AMFA is no exception and I don't know that none of the things that happened with the TWU will never happen with AMFA but what I do know is that a Union is basically the membership as Rusty has said and many TWU supporters believe this as well with that being said one thing that will be different for sure is that with AMFA Mechanics will be the Majority in the Union and with AMFA we will have 8 other Airlines full of Mechanics as the Majority with us and I like the sound of that, maybe when we move to AMFA the other work groups will be making wages comparable to their craft and class at other Airlines instead of allways being at the top while AA Mechanics are at the bottom of their craft and class in pay.

AA Mechanics have only been at the top of their class and craft one time in 20 years and that does not fly with me, AMFA is the Union that broke ground on bumping Mechanic pay and benefits up to where I think they should be, so as I said AMFA is far from perfect but as a Aircraft Mechanic the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association ( AMFA ) is where I would like to be, if that is the will of the Majority of my fellow Mechanics, I really could care less about what the other work groups at AA think about the Mechanics leaving or staying.

Mechanics tried to become seperate whithin the TWU many many times but it never did happen the way we wanted it to happen, and many of us are determined to be seperate even if it means changing Unions which we have determined it does, Listen we all have our reasons why we want to change to AMFA or stay with the TWU one sides reasons are no better than the other sides, what it really comes down to is what the Majority want much like the resent concession, I voted NO as many Mechanics did but it passed anyway and it has had a huge impact on me my family and many other people who are laid off without even severance pay, but hey the Majority wanted it so we have it and I will just have to deal with what the Majority wanted much as we will all have to do in the coming Election, you won't have to like who wins but like the concession you will have to deal with it and make the best of it.

I know first hand how much it sucks when a vote does not go the way you would like for it to go.

ILC = Industry Leading Concession

And the lowest paid worst benefits Mechanics in the Aviation Industry

sorry Johnny but that is just my opinion

Now go have an AMFA day

 

[Bob Owens]

We really dont know if the majority voted this in or not. The crew chiefs were omitted from the list given to AAA, whose process of giving pin numbers that were sequential is suspect in itself.

Crew Chiefs tend to be more senior, therefore less likely to be affected by a layoff plus the fact that they took the job as Crew Chief indicates that they seek to maximize their pay. So most of the Crew Chiefs would likely be No votes. Its quite possible that the same people who are responsible for omitting them from the list cast yes votes in their behalf.

The fact is that this contract is devastating to all of us , with the exception of course to those who brought it back to us and told us we must accept it. They still get their $3 million. Isnt it remarkable that a company that claims to be in dire financial straits is willing to fork over $3 million to pay for UB?

 

[twuer]

We really dont know if the majority voted this in or not. The crew chiefs were omitted from the list given to AAA, whose process of giving pin numbers that were sequential is suspect in itself.

Crew Chiefs tend to be more senior, therefore less likely to be affected by a layoff plus the fact that they took the job as Crew Chief indicates that they seek to maximize their pay. So most of the Crew Chiefs would likely be No votes. Its quite possible that the same people who are responsible for omitting them from the list cast yes votes in their behalf.

The fact is that this contract is devastating to all of us , with the exception of course to those who brought it back to us and told us we must accept it. They still get their $3 million. Isnt it remarkable that a company that claims to be in dire financial straits is willing to fork over $3 million to pay for UB?

Isnt it remarkable that a company that claims to be in dire financial straits is willing to fork over $3 million to pay for UB


Still NO proof of this Bob. We are still waiting though!!

 

[Raptor]

CIO

So, do you have specific changes in mind? Have you gone down to the union hall to get involved and write up specific changes that you feel need to be done?

I agree with the issue in General! And I also feel divide and conguer is not the avenue to take! Involvement is the key! Nothing will change unless the members choose to change the level of participation! Looking elsewhere does not accomplish this!

Get involved at the local level you mean like when many members of the membership voted the New Union hall down 4 TIMES and Randy said we are going to build it anyway, there was nothing the membership could do to stop him at the time, all we could do is what we did do VOTE and he said too bad for you, I am going to build it anyway luckily the AMFA drive came along and put a stop to that for now, but if AMFA does not win you can bet the new Union hall will be built against the Majority's wishes.

The TWU is incapable of change.

Why not just admit that.

 

[Bob Owens]

Still NO proof of this Bob. We are still waiting though!!

If you want proof go look at the Vermont Plan. Its says right on it "Eliminate Company Paid Union Business".