TWU negotiations.........what?

[limit]

Not to mention that you can leave the tv show without wining anything and still not loose what you started with, since you start with zero.
Not really the case here.
If you can live for a couple of years after you give more concessions ,ok that is fine
Just not try to sell it to us as anything else but that.
No thanks,NO DEAL.

 

[frontline]

Yeah, but if the deal was for $275k, you wouldn't be giving up potentially $300k to get it. This is not an extension as the intl has referred to it, it is a concessionary agreement that throws a little cash, and an unattainable profit sharing plan in exchange for a potentially massive Eagle expansion, 30% non-licensed mechanics on the line, crew chiefs selection turning into a boot licking competion, and of course turning over medical to the twu. NO DEAL.

I disagree that it's concessionary. I'm not saying 100% that I'd vote for it, but at the bottom line it is not a step backwards and doesn't lock us in long term. Considering the state the industry is in, that might be the best we are going to get.

 

[AMFAMAN]

I disagree that it's concessionary. I'm not saying 100% that I'd vote for it, but at the bottom line it is not a step backwards and doesn't lock us in long term. Considering the state the industry is in, that might be the best we are going to get.

Then it is quite obvious that you did not read the terms, or are uncapable of comprehending what you read.

 

[local 12 proud]

Considering the state the industry is in, that might be the best we are going to get.

We'll get'm next time brother....

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Not to mention that you can leave the tv show without wining anything and still not loose what you started with, since you start with zero.
Not really the case here.
If you can live for a couple of years after you give more concessions ,ok that is fine
Just not try to sell it to us as anything else but that.
No thanks,NO DEAL.

Your theory may not be unwise under the circumstances but in the TWU style of negotiations, we agree to something only to find out there was more to it and we lose alot more than we allegedly were told at the time. Lets not review the 2003 concession that no one understood or had a full understanding of what we were giving up when it was voted on! Look beyond the golden handshake!

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I disagree that it's concessionary. I'm not saying 100% that I'd vote for it, but at the bottom line it is not a step backwards and doesn't lock us in long term. Considering the state the industry is in, that might be the best we are going to get.

I apologize for answering the wrong person.


Your theory may not be unwise under the circumstances but in the TWU style of negotiations, we agree to something only to find out there was more to it and we lose alot more than we allegedly were told at the time. Lets not review the 2003 concession that no one understood or had a full understanding of what we were giving up when it was voted on! Look beyond the golden handshake!

 

[The Goose]

I apologize for answering the wrong person.


Your theory may not be unwise under the circumstances but in the TWU style of negotiations, we agree to something only to find out there was more to it and we lose alot more than we allegedly were told at the time. Lets not review the 2003 concession that no one understood or had a full understanding of what we were giving up when it was voted on! Look beyond the golden handshake!

Fool us twice, shame on us.

There's no way in hell I'll ever agree to anything again unless I have had, in my hot little hands, the entire text of any agreement for at least 1 month. That's my minimum.

There's no good reason why the mess Little wanted us to vote on couldn't have been immediately presented to the membership. There's been more info come from the company than the trash we're paying to represent us.

Enough already.

 

[will fix for food]

Read...



A 10% increase puts them at 6.6%, not the stated 8%.

Now when Eagle takes over more of the domestic flying, it allows for increases in longer flights for AA fleet, which in turn allows for an even larger increases in the number of Eagle flights. Furthermore, the lack of restrictions on new routes and routes not flown since early 90's allows the company to continually go way above the so-called cap. Not sure what kind of BS your president pushing, but I'd be willing to bet your satation is all Eagle by 2010-11 with this language.

Eagle doesn't have the planes to increase it's flying and because of the APA's SCOPE clause they won't be getting any. If AMR diverts flying away from A/A it will to be to someone other than Eagle.

I think it is more likely that AMR wants to cut back A/A farther than they are allowed given the contractually agreed upon American/ AMR Eagle ASM ratio. I think they want to keep Eagle relatively stable to keep the brand recognition there and to protect slots until the 737's come.

That's just my guess, because I can't picture any scenario where Eagle canl expand unless the APA revises SCOPE.

 

[Bob Owens]

I disagree that it's concessionary. I'm not saying 100% that I'd vote for it, but at the bottom line it is not a step backwards and doesn't lock us in long term. Considering the state the industry is in, that might be the best we are going to get.

It is a step backwards. The pay rate will have lagged inflation two years time plus whatever concessions that they didnt bother to tell us about. The value of the concessions is something that pays for the company every year but the bonuses we would recieve for those concessions terminate. If the short term cash is what you seek you are better off stocking up on paenns and signing the OT list, 175 hours over the two years should more than cover the bonus.

Better off to let them drag out the contract and go for retro, and work the OT in the meantime.

ZERO concessions, in 2003 the company gave nothing and took all they could, its time to recoup.

 

[1 VF-1 2NV]

Agreed. The medical like-uaw veba and variable pay is a big NO NO. Why should we the first airline to have these shoved down our throats. Let another airline employee group swallow it first and see what happens with them...anyone remember UA ESOP??? What a crock...

 

[AMFAMAN]

Agreed. The medical like-uaw veba and variable pay is a big NO NO. Why should we the first airline to have these shoved down our throats. Let another airline employee group swallow it first and see what happens with them...anyone remember UA ESOP??? What a crock...

Because the twu has always been on the leading edge of concessions. First with the B-Scale, junior mechanic, Flex benefits, 8.5 hour shifts on all three shifts, SRP's, OSM's etc. etc. etc. A VEBA would just fall in line with their industry set-back concessions. :down:

 

[AMFAMAN]

Eagle doesn't have the planes to increase it's flying and because of the APA's SCOPE clause they won't be getting any. If AMR diverts flying away from A/A it will to be to someone other than Eagle.

I think it is more likely that AMR wants to cut back A/A farther than they are allowed given the contractually agreed upon American/ AMR Eagle ASM ratio. I think they want to keep Eagle relatively stable to keep the brand recognition there and to protect slots until the 737's come.

That's just my guess, because I can't picture any scenario where Eagle canl expand unless the APA revises SCOPE.

You're correct but if say the APA allows them to fly up to 90 seaters, then they would have an increase in ASM's and need this 8% language. I'm also not sure how the APA's scope clause covers other regionals expansion, other than the size of the aircraft. Of course the company could always go the BK route and gut all the scope clauses. <_<

 

[The Goose]

Because the twu has always been on the leading edge of concessions. First with the B-Scale, junior mechanic, Flex benefits, 8.5 hour shifts on all three shifts, SRP's, OSM's etc. etc. etc. A VEBA would just fall in line with their industry set-back concessions. :down:

I think we all want to be rid of the TWU and I wouldn't trust them to administer a health plan for my dog as I think more of my dog than that.

Perhaps the execs would like for the TWU to administer their health plan.

 

[FWAAA]

I think we all want to be rid of the TWU and I wouldn't trust them to administer a health plan for my dog as I think more of my dog than that.

Perhaps the execs would like for the TWU to administer their health plan.

If you guys formed your own union, would a VEBA be out of the question?

I realize there is a strong feeling that the UAW members just bought a pig in a poke, but given that those guys have out-earned you for decades (for factory assembly jobs - hardly skilled labor like AA's experienced AMTs), I'd hesitate to call them stupid for agreeing to try to manage their own health care expenses.

Steelworkers (another highly paid shop) have had a VEBA for years, IIRC.

I just can't figure out why you guys keep paying the worthless union what you pay them. The maintenance guys at UAL (what's left of that workforce) have replaced the IAM AND AMFA while you guys keep suffering under the TWU-imposed concessions.

My take on the problem? Lotsa apathy. Nobody in your ranks willing to take charge and form an AMT union.

The pilots at USAir (at least the East pilots) quickly formed their own union in their misguided belief that they could avoid their ALPA-imposed binding arbitration decision on seniority integration.

12,000 mechanics at AA and none of them willing to step up.

Like I've said before - too much focus on what other people make and not enough focus on how to improve your own pay. Paycheck envy takes a lot of energy - energy that could be better spent (IMO) on ridding yourselves of your worthless bus drivers' union.

But what do I know - I get paid by the character, and haven't suffered concessions.

 

[The Goose]

Eagle doesn't have the planes to increase it's flying and because of the APA's SCOPE clause they won't be getting any. If AMR diverts flying away from A/A it will to be to someone other than Eagle.

I think it is more likely that AMR wants to cut back A/A farther than they are allowed given the contractually agreed upon American/ AMR Eagle ASM ratio. I think they want to keep Eagle relatively stable to keep the brand recognition there and to protect slots until the 737's come.

That's just my guess, because I can't picture any scenario where Eagle canl expand unless the APA revises SCOPE.

... but let's return to the facts that placed the industry where it's at now.

As has been posted and stated in many other places, here too I think, for the number of people flown vs: the amount of fuel burned, the puddle-jumper jets are relatively inefficient as compared to larger aircraft. Flying them 'til the new whatevers are available would be rather silly as we already have the S80 to keep the gas bills high.

APA's scope, the logistics, the TWU's objections (unless Little Jimmy is bought off - again) seems to preclude any serious changes to the various Eaglet companies business plans while operating under the AMR banner. Could be wrong here; I have been before.

Not much was let out re: this "offer" to the rep'd employees and probably with good reason. Just remember - once voted on, any kind of contractual trash that was presented for said vote can be accepted by Little Jimmy on our "behalf", as was the 2003 fiasco - the court said "he can do that, brother".

The major improvement seemed to have been to the TWU's bottom line by "administering" (read dipping into) the bucks for our healthcare through a VEBA. This will be a major issue eventually with the UAW due to the nature of the beast (more greed) and I'd rather we not get involved in this crap until we collectively have adequate safeguards against the actions of our own union ("union" pro tem).

No voting allowed until there is a major improvement in the contract terms.