TWU negotiations.........what?

[The Goose]

If you guys formed your own union, would a VEBA be out of the question?

I realize there is a strong feeling that the UAW members just bought a pig in a poke, but given that those guys have out-earned you for decades (for factory assembly jobs - hardly skilled labor like AA's experienced AMTs), I'd hesitate to call them stupid for agreeing to try to manage their own health care expenses.

Steelworkers (another highly paid shop) have had a VEBA for years, IIRC.

I just can't figure out why you guys keep paying the worthless union what you pay them. The maintenance guys at UAL (what's left of that workforce) have replaced the IAM AND AMFA while you guys keep suffering under the TWU-imposed concessions.

My take on the problem? Lotsa apathy. Nobody in your ranks willing to take charge and form an AMT union.

The pilots at USAir (at least the East pilots) quickly formed their own union in their misguided belief that they could avoid their ALPA-imposed binding arbitration decision on seniority integration.

12,000 mechanics at AA and none of them willing to step up.

Like I've said before - too much focus on what other people make and not enough focus on how to improve your own pay. Paycheck envy takes a lot of energy - energy that could be better spent (IMO) on ridding yourselves of your worthless bus drivers' union.

But what do I know - I get paid by the character, and haven't suffered concessions. 😛

Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple.

Consider - AMFA made the inroads in did solely because it was the only direction anyone could travel at that time. The AFL-CIO has a "gentleman's" agreement with its affiliates not to raid each other, i. e., a "no competition" clause.

The Teamsters disagreed with this and along with one or two other unions disaffiliated from the AFL-CIO. Now, there are three or four representational entities out there to choose from, most of which do not represent our interests. AMFA decided to bolster their finances by making "good union men" (read dues payers) from the scab labor that infested NWA at the beginning of the AMFA strike. That doesn't sit well with me and many others.

The Teamsters seem to be disappointing many at UAL, by all accounts, since their membership takeover which was rather obviously a move to increase their union-dues cash flow giving little in return.

Granted - the best way out is to form our own representational entity and stick to some principals, however, we all know where principals go when the payoff is great enough.

 

[AMFAMAN]

If you guys formed your own union, would a VEBA be out of the question?

I realize there is a strong feeling that the UAW members just bought a pig in a poke, but given that those guys have out-earned you for decades (for factory assembly jobs - hardly skilled labor like AA's experienced AMTs), I'd hesitate to call them stupid for agreeing to try to manage their own health care expenses.

Steelworkers (another highly paid shop) have had a VEBA for years, IIRC.

I just can't figure out why you guys keep paying the worthless union what you pay them. The maintenance guys at UAL (what's left of that workforce) have replaced the IAM AND AMFA while you guys keep suffering under the TWU-imposed concessions.

My take on the problem? Lotsa apathy. Nobody in your ranks willing to take charge and form an AMT union.

The pilots at USAir (at least the East pilots) quickly formed their own union in their misguided belief that they could avoid their ALPA-imposed binding arbitration decision on seniority integration.

12,000 mechanics at AA and none of them willing to step up.

Like I've said before - too much focus on what other people make and not enough focus on how to improve your own pay. Paycheck envy takes a lot of energy - energy that could be better spent (IMO) on ridding yourselves of your worthless bus drivers' union.

But what do I know - I get paid by the character, and haven't suffered concessions. 😛

A major problem with a VEBA run by the twu is that it would be written in such a way that the money would be the twu's and not the members divided by craft and class. In other words, you're locked in for life with the twu. Now to your question about a VEBA under a new union, i still don't like it, but possibly could go for it if the trust fund was under the memberships control and adminstered by a trusted outside entity. It must also be able to transfer the plan to any future union if the members choose. We also don't need another brother-in-law twu type administrator making 200k per year with a GED running the plan.

As far as a new union, lots of talk and little action has been the case. Most don't want anything done until after the agreement is signed, and you are wrong about no one is willing to step up; we've had at least 2 so far. <_<

 

[FWAAA]

As far as a new union, lots of talk and little action has been the case. Most don't want anything done until after the agreement is signed, and you are wrong about no one is willing to step up; we've had at least 2 so far. <_<

Good to hear you've finally had someone step forward to lead you out of your 40 years in the desert. Where they been the last 5+ years?

But here's a stupid question: Why the hell would anyone want to wait until AFTER the TWU negotiates a sub-par agreement on your behalf?

Shouldn't you be replacing the TWU right now so that a competent union could bargain for a new agreement?

There's a lot of things I just don't get.

 

[Bob Owens]

I realize there is a strong feeling that the UAW members just bought a pig in a poke, but given that those guys have out-earned you for decades (for factory assembly jobs - hardly skilled labor like AA's experienced AMTs), I'd hesitate to call them stupid for agreeing to try to manage their own health care expenses.
Steelworkers (another highly paid shop) have had a VEBA for years, IIRC.


😛

Well your statement pretty much answers your question on the reaction to a TWU/ATD negotiated VEBA. If the UAW was negotiating it would be different.

I just can't figure out why you guys keep paying the worthless union what you pay them. The maintenance guys at UAL (what's left of that workforce) have replaced the IAM AND AMFA while you guys keep suffering under the TWU-imposed concessions.

IAM contracts provide a more clearly defined class and craft. This continued under AMFA. Under the TWU agreement the contracts overlap class and crafts as defined by the NMB. For instance the guys who service the water and lavs are considered maintenance by the NMB but Fleet service by the contract. The entire group that falls under the NMB maintenance definition can change at any bid.

My take on the problem? Lotsa apathy. Nobody in your ranks willing to take charge and form an AMT union.

Apathy doesnt get 9000 signatures.

The pilots at USAir (at least the East pilots) quickly formed their own union in their misguided belief that they could avoid their ALPA-imposed binding arbitration decision on seniority integration.

Pilots and Flight attendants are easily defined groups.

12,000 mechanics at AA and none of them willing to step up.

Thats not true, many have stepped up but the sytem stacks the odds against them. Its harder to change unions than to get a first union.

Like I've said before - too much focus on what other people make and not enough focus on how to improve your own pay. Paycheck envy takes a lot of energy - energy that could be better spent (IMO) on ridding yourselves of your worthless bus drivers' union.

Pay envy? When someone tells you that you are overpaid you look to see what others make. Thats not envy, its gaining perspective. As far as the TWU being a bus drivers union its really more of an airport workers union since airport workers are the biggest majority within the union.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Good to hear you've finally had someone step forward to lead you out of your 40 years in the desert. Where they been the last 5+ years?

But here's a stupid question: Why the hell would anyone want to wait until AFTER the TWU negotiates a sub-par agreement on your behalf?

Shouldn't you be replacing the TWU right now so that a competent union could bargain for a new agreement?

There's a lot of things I just don't get.

Do you not think for a second that AA wouldn't do everything in their power to bankrupt the union that tossed their beloved twu off the property? A new union would have to pay for time off, instead of AA paying for it. If it was to happen today, a new union would start with zero money and immediately start negotiations, and you know AA would try to stop payroll deduction dues payment. Finally, with the amount of apathy on the floor, those who would get involved just don't think it's worth the effort at this time, not enough pain obviously. When a workgroup gives up massive concessions, massive layoffs, and a royal screwing before the NMB, but still increases their productivity by 37%, you really have to wonder. Besides, based on the 2004 nmb ruling, we are going to need over 75% of those on the property to sign a card, or start digging up graveyards to get signatures from the dead. <_<

 

[Bob Owens]

I realize there is a strong feeling that the UAW members just bought a pig in a poke, but given that those guys have out-earned you for decades (for factory assembly jobs - hardly skilled labor like AA's experienced AMTs), I'd hesitate to call them stupid for agreeing to try to manage their own health care expenses.
Steelworkers (another highly paid shop) have had a VEBA for years, IIRC.


😛

Well your statement pretty much answers your question on the reaction to a TWU/ATD negotiated VEBA. If the UAW was negotiating it would be different.

I just can't figure out why you guys keep paying the worthless union what you pay them. The maintenance guys at UAL (what's left of that workforce) have replaced the IAM AND AMFA while you guys keep suffering under the TWU-imposed concessions.

IAM contracts provide a more clearly defined class and craft. This continued under AMFA. Under the TWU agreement the contracts overlap class and crafts as defined by the NMB. For instance the guys who service the water and lavs are considered maintenance by the NMB but Fleet service by the contract. This entire group that falls under the NMB maintenance definition but under the Fleet contract can change at any bid.

My take on the problem? Lotsa apathy. Nobody in your ranks willing to take charge and form an AMT union.

Apathy doesnt get 9000 signatures.

The pilots at USAir (at least the East pilots) quickly formed their own union in their misguided belief that they could avoid their ALPA-imposed binding arbitration decision on seniority integration.

Pilots and Flight attendants are easily defined groups.

12,000 mechanics at AA and none of them willing to step up.

Thats not true, many have stepped up but the sytem stacks the odds against them. Its harder to change unions than to get a first union.

Like I've said before - too much focus on what other people make and not enough focus on how to improve your own pay. Paycheck envy takes a lot of energy - energy that could be better spent (IMO) on ridding yourselves of your worthless bus drivers' union.

Pay envy? When someone tells you that you are overpaid you look to see what others make. When someone screwed up doing their job and then says that you should take a pay cut is it wrong to question their bonuses? Thats not envy, its gaining perspective.

As far as the TWU being a bus drivers union its really more of an airport workers union since airport workers are the biggest group within the union.

 

[will fix for food]

... but let's return to the facts that placed the industry where it's at now.

As has been posted and stated in many other places, here too I think, for the number of people flown vs: the amount of fuel burned, the puddle-jumper jets are relatively inefficient as compared to larger aircraft. Flying them 'til the new whatevers are available would be rather silly as we already have the S80 to keep the gas bills high.

APA's scope, the logistics, the TWU's objections (unless Little Jimmy is bought off - again) seems to preclude any serious changes to the various Eaglet companies business plans while operating under the AMR banner. Could be wrong here; I have been before.

They may be more inefficient on a CASM basis but if AMR jacks the price between cities X and Y so much that the 110 people on that MD80 turn into 70 the RJ's economics look much much better. The RASM would be through the roof.

Did anyone notice the companies SCOPE proposal to the APA came out? They actually aren't looking for as much as I thought they would. Unlimited numbers of 76 seaters. I thought they would want anything under 100 seats at Eagle. Interesting.

 

[frontline]

It is a step backwards. The pay rate will have lagged inflation two years time plus whatever concessions that they didnt bother to tell us about. The value of the concessions is something that pays for the company every year but the bonuses we would recieve for those concessions terminate. If the short term cash is what you seek you are better off stocking up on paenns and signing the OT list, 175 hours over the two years should more than cover the bonus.

Better off to let them drag out the contract and go for retro, and work the OT in the meantime.

ZERO concessions, in 2003 the company gave nothing and took all they could, its time to recoup.

From where I'm sitting right now it's a step forwards, since it's more than I have. Your OT idea is a good one but what if - god forbid - oil goes to $175 or $200? AA or the court will come looking (not asking if it's the court) for big concessions instead of offering a small cookie. It's a turbulent and uncertain time so I wouldn't mind being locked in for two years to see how things shake out.

 

[Bob Owens]

From where I'm sitting right now it's a step forwards, since it's more than I have. Your OT idea is a good one but what if - god forbid - oil goes to $175 or $200? AA or the court will come looking (not asking if it's the court) for big concessions instead of offering a small cookie. It's a turbulent and uncertain time so I wouldn't mind being locked in for two years to see how things shake out.

Thats the point, there is no way to lock in the company, you can only lock in yourself with no way to go but down. They could make a deal today then go to court and ask for more-like USAIR and UAL did, or not even go to court like AA did in 2003. Dont grant more concesssions now because either way it wont protect you any more than prior concessions protected those who went BK. The fact is the concessions just lowered the starting point for more concessions in BK court.

The extra cash you think you are getting could cost you more out of pocket due to the concealed concessions that were not specified in the unions release.

Look, if oil goes to $175 or $200 a barrel then you really cant afford to give more concessions because everything you consume, which is transported by oil will be going up in price.

AA still has the money. Rumor is they offered $42 an hour if we would agree to allowing them to have 20% LSMs and part timers to replace full time A&Ps on the line. Over the long haul it would save them labor costs and A&Ps would never see another increase in pay but if your broke you cant increase your current expenses for long term savings. Dont allow fear to govern your future.

 

[FWAAA]

Do you not think for a second that AA wouldn't do everything in their power to bankrupt the union that tossed their beloved twu off the property? A new union would have to pay for time off, instead of AA paying for it. If it was to happen today, a new union would start with zero money and immediately start negotiations, and you know AA would try to stop payroll deduction dues payment. Finally, with the amount of apathy on the floor, those who would get involved just don't think it's worth the effort at this time, not enough pain obviously. When a workgroup gives up massive concessions, massive layoffs, and a royal screwing before the NMB, but still increases their productivity by 37%, you really have to wonder. Besides, based on the 2004 nmb ruling, we are going to need over 75% of those on the property to sign a card, or start digging up graveyards to get signatures from the dead. <_<

Start with no money? Are you serious?

You mean the approximately 12,000 mechanics couldn't be counted on to buy their first AMTAA pin/badge/t-shirt for $100 each, which would provide the new union with $1.2 million to get started? Legal help doesn't come cheap, and it certainly doesn't come free. Competent help would probably want a retainer of $50k to $100k to help form the union and commence negotiations.

If y'all can't pony up a measly $100 each to help free yourselves of the chains of the TWU, then some might say you're currently getting exactly what y'all deserve.

I'd paypal $100 to a new AA-only AMT union to help you guys succeed.

 

[Bob Owens]

Start with no money? Are you serious?

You mean the approximately 12,000 mechanics couldn't be counted on to buy their first AMTAA pin/badge/t-shirt for $100 each, which would provide the new union with $1.2 million to get started? Legal help doesn't come cheap, and it certainly doesn't come free. Competent help would probably want a retainer of $50k to $100k to help form the union and commence negotiations.

If y'all can't pony up a measly $100 each to help free yourselves of the chains of the TWU, then some might say you're currently getting exactly what y'all deserve.

I'd paypal $100 to a new AA-only AMT union to help you guys succeed.

Thats not even a tank of gas for your Escalade.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Start with no money? Are you serious?

You mean the approximately 12,000 mechanics couldn't be counted on to buy their first AMTAA pin/badge/t-shirt for $100 each, which would provide the new union with $1.2 million to get started? Legal help doesn't come cheap, and it certainly doesn't come free. Competent help would probably want a retainer of $50k to $100k to help form the union and commence negotiations.

If y'all can't pony up a measly $100 each to help free yourselves of the chains of the TWU, then some might say you're currently getting exactly what y'all deserve.

I'd paypal $100 to a new AA-only AMT union to help you guys succeed.

It was hard to get them to pay $10 for a t-shirt that cost us $8--9 to make and ship during the AMFA drives. We initially asked $20 and were told they could buy a shirt cheaper at WalMart. The last 7 year drive was done on a shoestring t-shirt budget in which no AMFA National money was used until we were assured of a filing in 2004. If we had the donations you speak of, the twu would of been removed years ago and this site would have a few less perpetually disgruntled posters.

Seriously, I'd doubt very much that fund raising could clear more than $10k systemwide, which is why I say it would be bankrupt from the start if the union had to go into negotiations ASAP. But at no time is this an approval of the twu, in fact they got an approval rating lower than Bush does, but for some strange reason many mechanics will not invest in their future. And I want to emphasize "not all," just many mechanics, as there are some who made large donations of money and just as importantly time through the years.

Also never forget the number is 18,601 including the dead people, so a drive would need over 75% of active mechanic and related to sign cards or around 9,301 out of 12,600 active in which over 2,000 are part of the always pro-twu title 2 crowd.

BTW...it's on the higher end of your guess for the retainer, and thanks for the offer, only $1,199,900 to go. <_<

 

[frontline]

Thats the point, there is no way to lock in the company, you can only lock in yourself with no way to go but down. They could make a deal today then go to court and ask for more-like USAIR and UAL did, or not even go to court like AA did in 2003. Dont grant more concesssions now because either way it wont protect you any more than prior concessions protected those who went BK. The fact is the concessions just lowered the starting point for more concessions in BK court.

The extra cash you think you are getting could cost you more out of pocket due to the concealed concessions that were not specified in the unions release.

Look, if oil goes to $175 or $200 a barrel then you really cant afford to give more concessions because everything you consume, which is transported by oil will be going up in price.

AA still has the money. Rumor is they offered $42 an hour if we would agree to allowing them to have 20% LSMs and part timers to replace full time A&Ps on the line. Over the long haul it would save them labor costs and A&Ps would never see another increase in pay but if your broke you cant increase your current expenses for long term savings. Dont allow fear to govern your future.

It is a risk, I agree. The point though was to think about a contract that gave us a little and would enable the company to avoid bk (and concessions for us). I'm in no mood to give back, but I do see reason in the idea that airlines just can't operate profitably now without real, structural change in the industry.

I don't know about any "concealed concessions" because I'm apparently not important enough to see the whole deal.

Does AA have the money? I don't know. I think it depends on how long oil stays this high and if they can reach agreements with APA and APFA.

 

[AMFAMAN]

It is a risk, I agree. The point though was to think about a contract that gave us a little and would enable the company to avoid bk (and concessions for us). I'm in no mood to give back, but I do see reason in the idea that airlines just can't operate profitably now without real, structural change in the industry.

I don't know about any "concealed concessions" because I'm apparently not important enough to see the whole deal.

Does AA have the money? I don't know. I think it depends on how long oil stays this high and if they can reach agreements with APA and APFA.

The concessions within the package were pointed out at the last union meeting. The Eagle ASM's going up by 33% which plays right into the proposal by the company to the APA for unlimited 76 seaters is a huge concession. Giving the twu control of our benefits through a VEBA? I hope I don't have to explain that one to you. <_< The hidden language included the non-licensed AMT's on the line, crew chief selection among other thing I have in my noted someplace.

Our contract is going to have no bearing on whether or not the company files BK, if such was the case they can stall a settlement with us for years, just like the other carriers have over the years or like they have many times with the pilots. Having a deal going into BK is no guarantee that they still won't have it shredded once you get to BK. This has been proven several times recently, heck UAL and US had their first BK deals with their AMTs sent back for a second gutting.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Our contract is going to have no bearing on whether or not the company files BK, if such was the case they can stall a settlement with us for years, just like the other carriers have over the years or like they have many times with the pilots. Having a deal going into BK is no guarantee that they still won't have it shredded once you get to BK. This has been proven several times recently, heck UAL and US had their first BK deals with their AMTs sent back for a second gutting.

Nonsense. Fuel and labor are the two biggest costs to the company. Fuel isn't getting any cheaper, so that leaves labor as the primary determining factor of the company's expense levels. How flexible you are in these negotiations will absolutely determine whether or not AA files bk (and hence if your contract gets gutted).